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Featured Is it true?

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by paarsurrey, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    He does not say, just leave it untouched. He is saying if it is protected in its mine, from solidifying.
    His statement seems to suggest, that if copper in the mine is not solid, but remains in state of liquid copper for 70 years, then under certain conditions converts to gold. Perhaps, it means, if copper remains molten in its mine, and protected for 70 years. We do not know, exactly the conditions. Bahaullah is not revealing all details here.
    But in many copper mines, some gold is also found together with copper.
    Originally, when big bang happened, and the earth, was yet molten, different metals formed on earth after cooling. It requires much knowledge of geology, which I do not have.
     
  2. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    All copper in mines is solid. The melting point is 1085 degrees C, or quite hot, as metals go. Copper is within rock, or copper rich ore, it's never in a liquid metal state, other than in the earth's core. But you are free to think your prophet knew more about geology than today's well trained geologists, with PH Ds in the field.

    Copper extraction - Wikipedia
     
    #162 Vinayaka, Mar 15, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
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  3. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    The point is that Bahaullah took it from medieval alchemy. No one tried it to prove it to find it to be correct, not even Bahaullah himself did make such an experiment , yet he was so much enticed/allured to believe its correctness that this was true and used it as an analogy.
    Right, please?

    Regards
     
  4. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    A good suggestion indeed. UHJ of the Bahaism people should get it proven by the scientists. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  5. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I have no idea.
     
  6. Looncall

    Looncall Well-Known Member

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    Lots of ignorant things are said.
     
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  7. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    He is not necessarily speaking about mining in our time, nor He necessarily is speaking of a condition which currently exist on earth. We cannot read more than what He says. He is not saying in the copper mining, copper is molten. You are free to keep thinking you have disproved Bahaullah. I am not claiming I have proof that or a detail explanation how that works.
     
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  8. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Sorry, the original book "Kitab-e-Iqan" or "Book of Certitude" neither in Persian/Farsi, as I understand, nor its translation in Arabic mention alchemy in the text:

    ١٢٢ کلمات غير نداشته و ندارم و ليکن چون جمعی از احوال ايشان سؤال نموده و مستفسر شده بودند لهذا لازم گشت که قدری در کتب او ملاحظه رود و جواب سائلين بعد از معرفت و بصيرت داده شود. باری، کتب عربيّه او بدست نيفتاد تا اينکه شخصی روزی ذکر نمود کتابی از ايشان که مسمّی به "ارشاد العوام" است در اين بلد يافت می شود. اگر چه از اين اسم رائحه کبر و غرور استشمام شد که مردم را عوام و خود را عالم فرض نموده و جميع مراتب او فی الحقيقه از همين اسم کتاب معلوم و مبرهن شد که در سبيل نفس و هوی سالکند و در تيه جهل و عمی ساکن، گويا حديث مشهور را فراموش نموده‌اند که می فرمايد: "اَلعِلمُ تَمامُ المَعلومِ وَالقُدرَةُ وَالعِزَّةُ تَمامُ الخَلقِ." با وجود اين کتاب را طلب نموده، چند روز معدود نزد بنده بود و گويا دو مرتبه در او ملاحظه شد. از قضا مرتبه ثانی جائی بدست آمد که حکايت معراج سيّد لولاک بود. ملاحظه شد که قريب بيست علم اَو ازيد، شرط معرفت معراج نوشته‏اند و همچو مستفاد شد که اگر نفسی اين علوم را درست ادراک ننموده باشد به معرفت اين امر عالی متعالی فائز نگردد. و از جمله علوم، علم فلسفه و علم کيميا و علم سيميا را مذکور نموده و ادراک اين علوم فانيه مردوده را شرط ادراک علوم باقيه قدسيّه شمرده.
    مرجع كتب وآثار بهائی - کتاب ايقان٬ صفحه ۱۲۰-۱۳۵

    It mentions of Science of Chemistry that has been perhaps wrongly translated as alchemy in the English translation rendered by Shoghí Effendí.
    The original work of Bahaullah "Kitab-i-Iqan" , I am told, is in Farsi/Persian. UHJ should look into it and make the necessary correction, please.
    The Arabic translation is more close to the original Farsi/Persian as the translator has kept Arabic words intact, Bahaullah was used to write them so often in his Farsi/Persian prose . Right, please?

    Regards
     
    #168 paarsurrey, Mar 15, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  9. ManSinha

    ManSinha Active Member

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    @Tony Bristow-Stagg - would you explain complex tax laws to a child?
    Then why would an all powerful omnipotent god give his wisdom to someone who cannot write?
    Or even better - snap his fingers (if god has fingers and chooses to snap them) and make the recipient literate?

    These are simple questions - to which the logical answer will not be your liking
     
  10. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    Alchemy was the foundation of chemistry as I have heard but chemistry certainly has outgrown it. I practice a form of alchemy when I play modded Minecraft. By reflecting how I play the game I intend to alter my psychological character. That is half of what alchemy has always been about, inner transformation. And it works!
     
  11. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    "That's not what he meant." is a somewhat overused response in history of religion, but sure, if you need to believe, it works for you. Just don't expect others to think it's any sort of logical argument.
     
  12. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I quote from Kitab-i-Iqan or Book of Certitude of Bahaullah about Quran, please:

    "behold what the Book which embraceth all things hath revealed"
    "Consider how clearly and explicitly he hath been described in God’s incorruptible Book!"
    "Ponder the blessed verse, so that the meaning of the words: “There is neither a thing green nor sere but it is noted in the unerring Book " Qur’án 6:59
    Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 161-200
    Regards
     
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  13. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Being liquid for 70 years would not convert copper to gold. To do that, you would need a nuclear reaction, and that requires temperatures in the millions of degrees.
     
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  14. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I know Farsi, I can tell you, the word کيميا means Alchemy. For example کیمیاگر means, Alchemist.
     
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  15. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Well, if you claim " that is what He meant", you need to prove it, and show how you know what He meant. The way, we can tell what He meant, is only if, He explained it somewhere, what He meant, or, if Abdulbaha, or Shoghi Effendi, told us what He meant. Any other explanation regarding what He meant, without a basis, is merely personal opinions, which ofcourse everyone is entitled to.
     
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  16. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Maybe not. But if it is protected from solidifying in its mine, for 70 years, is subject to interpretations, and the condition of 'protecting it from solidifying in its mine", may require keeping it under a whole set of conditions (pressure, temperature, surroundings additives, etc..), which in not here mentioned in details, to make an educated decision if it will convert to gold or not.

    Supposingly, it will not convert to gold literally. Still we cannot conclude Bahaullah is wrong, if He is not speaking literally, and His aim is to use this as an analogy. It might be that, people in His time, believed this is how gold is formed. In our view, God speaks in the level of understanding of people, and His aim in this case is not to teach Alchemy, but rather the concept of spiritual transformation. So, for its purpose, it is an excellent analogy.
     
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  17. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Well-Known Member
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    The link helps thank you. I see copper in its own Mine is;

    "...Most copper ores contain only a small percentage of copper metal bound up within valuable ore minerals, with the remainder of the ore being unwanted rock or gangueminerals, typically silicate minerals or oxide minerals for which there is often no value..."

    Thus to keep all that moulten for 70 years?

    As already said, I can not prove it to be true and I do not discount it is false.

    Thus from an Infallable source, you gave your answer.

    Well done.

    It also answers this OP. All we do not understand is because of our limitations. God revealed only what we can currently know and what we can nit know bexomes our test of self.

    This is Faith. Having certainty in the power of the Word of God, over our understanding of it. We should never let our differences become a barrier to finding God through God's given Messengers.

    Regards Tony
     
    #177 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Mar 16, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  18. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist In Hac Lacrimarum Valle

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    That's a little simplistic. Alchemy was extremely rigorous and did make genuine contributions which would eventuate into modern chemistry. You don't spend centuries playing with chemicals and not learn a thing or two about them and how to handle said chemicals experimentally. Although alchemy was working off an incorrect paradigm, baseless superstition it was not. (When viewed within the context of its time). In fact the very idea of transmutation is indeed possible, although far beyond practical.

    Here's a more sympathetic reading of Alchemy from Scientific American.
    Fact or Fiction?: Lead Can Be Turned into Gold
     
    #178 Musing Bassist, Mar 17, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  19. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Agreed.

    After subsequent research/reflections I have found that the cleric who wrote the book “Irshádu’l-‘Avám”might have involved in such wrongful pursuits like alchemy or sorcery or magic etc. All these things have nothing to do with Quran/Islam/Muhammad and are indeed not needed to understand the spiritual experience of “Mi‘ráj”.

    I am pleased to know that one knows Farsi.

    I am reading Iqan with an open mind and I will be asking questions wherever I need it. All Bahais and or non-Bahais are most welcome to answer them.

    Regards
     
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  20. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Well-Known Member
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    In a link posted above copper in its own mine is bound to many other minerals and thus needs to be separated.

    The question I have been looking for, is does science know how Gold is formed?

    Regards Tony
     
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