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Featured Is it true?

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by paarsurrey, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    All this talk of the metaphor - to consider what the copper or the gold represents. However, a simple question dashes this notion to pieces:

    Which has more intrinsic worth, copper or gold?​

    There is no sufficient answer to that question. The selection of either is purely subjective. I honestly would have expected a wise man to have realized this, and not have appealed to the greed of men to help him make his point.
     
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  2. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Keep reading... if it is symbolic, it's actually not that bad...

    Perhaps not to your taste, a little too religy.

    But hey... could be a lot worse?
     
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  3. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I believe he meant it as a literal example ... something factual to illustrate his point about something vaguely spiritual. Something akin to if you walk a stray path you'll fall (metaphorically) just as you would if you walked to the edge of the earth, and fell off. (science)
     
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  4. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

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    Could.
     
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  5. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    The question about "metal copper becoming metal gold" is, did it happen in the past period or in the time when Bahaullah was alive?

    The argument is only valid if it had happened in the past. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  6. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Yes some alchemists did serious work but magic was not possible then as it is not possible now
     
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  7. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    But Bahaullah was talking about metal copper having become metal gold in the past, as a rule. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  8. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Not possible
     
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  9. Baroodi

    Baroodi Active Member

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    God is Omnipotent. Created humans from clay. (All he needs if he want something is to say : Be; and it will be.
     
  10. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    When was Kitab-i-Iqan or Book of Certitude written by Bahaullah, please?

    Regards
     
  11. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    We are only discussing a passage of Kitab-i- Iqan of Bahaullah in this thread, please.
    Thanks for agreeing that "leaving copper in it’s mine molten for seventy years will not cause it to become gold". Does one mean that Bahaullah wrote it, as a fact, as he was a fallible human being, please?

    Regards
     
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  12. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    That passage quited by @InvestigateTruth is the answer.

    The knowledge is still hidden. Humanity is not ready for what will make this possible. It will be a power that can enable us to traverse time and space easily and swiftly.

    The balance is here;

    "...Whoso doubteth Our power, let him ask the Lord his God, that He may disclose unto him the secret, and assure him of its truth...."

    That will not happen to me until we find unity, it will take more than one mind to discover this and then use it for good.

    Regards Tony
     
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  13. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The passage is from the Kitab-i-Iqan, not Kitab-i-Aqdas.

    It can be found on page 157 here:

    Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 121-160

    If read in context, the verse is about the spiritual transformation of the soul of man. In that sense Copper and Gold are used as metaphors to compare the state of a soul who is animated by God (Gold) compared to one who is not (Copper).

    Seventy years is also used metaphorically throughout the Baha'i writings.

    Some Muslims who are antagonistic towards the Baha'i Faith like to take verses from the Baha'i writings out of context and assign a meaning that was never intended.

    Some Baha'is will (mistakenly IMHO) take it literally as well.
     
  14. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Yes Baha’u’llah and Muhammad are both fallible human beings, this does not mean they are not great humans, but being great does not make one infallible.
    That’s my point of view as a liberal.
     
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  15. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Does one mean that one metal cannot be converted to another metal, please?

    Regards
     
  16. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    no, one means that copper cannot be turned into gold. Even of you bury it.
     
  17. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Please provide a scientific reference changing copper to gold.
     
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  18. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Other references to seventy years in the Kita-i-Iqan include:

    We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.
    (Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Iqan, p. 255)

    Seventy and One Meanings

    Baha’u'llah in Kitáb-i-Íqán (p. 238) referred to “One hour’s reflection is preferable to seventy years of pious worship”.

    Seventy is also used prophetically in the Bible by Christ and the prophet Daniel:

    In the Book of Daniel 9:24-27 seven seventies are decreed:

    "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

    Interestingly Jesus refers to seven seventies when asked how many times we should forgive someone.

    "Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
    Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."

    Matthew 18:21-22

    Jesus refers to Daniel 9:26-27 through Matthew 24:15 using seventy in regards the abomination that causes desolation.
     
  19. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Good luck using this to convert copper to gold.

    Copper has 29 protons and 34 or 35 neutrons. Gold has 79 protons and 118 neutrons. Accelerators don't work like that.
     
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  20. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Depends on what you mean.

    You can mix tin and copper to make bronze. But bronze is a mixture, not a separate element.

    Copper, Mercury, and Gold are chemical elements. You cannot make one from the other using only chemical processes.

    It *is* possible to make Gold from Mercury using nuclear processes, but the results tend to be radioactive and the quantities made very small.

    But making Gold from Copper isn't going to happen via our current nuclear technology either.

    No, simply burying or waiting will not convert copper to gold.
     
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