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Featured Is it true?

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by paarsurrey, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    I can give a brief thought.

    From my understanding all things reach their current 'state' by more or less being subject to the forces that bring them to the current state of being at a given time.

    Thus carbon at one time was living vegetation.

    A person of the world can becone a person of spirit. This process cones about by being subject to the fire of tests between our material and spiritual self.

    This is a big subject.

    Regards Tony
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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  3. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    All great questions. Sorry I ran out of time today.

    The Elixer in this case I see would be the New Message and Law of God. It would most likely be the touchstone as well.

    Traverse may be our change from material being to spiritual being while still in the material world, born again as Christ put it. That also may tie into transmute.

    Regards Tony
     
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  4. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    What makes one sure that Bahaullah is talking of Alchemy and not of pure Science, please?

    Regards
     
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  5. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    And one's argument, please?

    Regards
     
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  6. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    This is the way I read it.

    Just from looking at the words on the screen, 80% of it is not about alchemy. Most of the passage is about:
     
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  7. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Bahaullah died a natural death:
    Bahá'u'lláh (/bəˈhɑːʊˌlɑː/; Persian : بهاءالله ; November 12 , 1817 – May 29, 1892), was a Persian religious leader, prophet and the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, which advocates universal peace and unity among all races, nations, and religions.

    At the age of 27, Bahá'u'lláh became a follower of the Báb, a Persian merchant who began preaching that God would soon send a new prophet similar to Jesus or Muhammad. The Báb and thousands of followers were executed by the Iranian authorities for their beliefs. Bahá'u'lláh faced exile from his native Iran, and in Baghdad in 1863 claimed to be the expected prophet of whom the Báb foretold. Thus, Bahá'ís regard Bahá'u'lláh to be a Manifestation of God, fulfilling of the eschatological expectations of Islam, Christianity, and other major religions.[1]

    Bahá'u'lláh faced further imprisonment under Ottoman authorities, initially in Edirne, and ultimately to the prison city of Acre, (present-day Israel), where he spent his final 24 years of life. His burial place is a destination of pilgrimage for his followers, and the Bahá'í World Centre sits in nearby Haifa.

    Bahá'u'lláh - Wikipedia

    On 9 May 1892, Bahá'u'lláh contracted a slight fever which grew steadily over the following days, abated, and then finally resulted in his death on 29 May 1892 (Dhu'l Qa'dah 2, 1309 AH). He was buried in the shrine located next to Mansion of Bahjí.[52]

    Bahá'u'lláh - Wikipedia

    Regards
     
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  8. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    In the same Book Bahaullah confirms a saying by Sadiq:
    One hour thinking is better than 70 years worship.

    I suggest the parallel of analogy is, if the Soul is protected from corruption of Sin and corrupted desires.
    This is what Bahaullah says elsewhere:

    Baha'u'llah — 'Regard man as a mine rich in gems of inestimable value. Education can, alone, cause it to reveal its treasures, and enable mankind to bene...'

    The Man is the 'Mine'. 'Education', seems to be the elixir??


    Bahaullah is concerned with living people.

    It is the Will of God. If Will it, He can transform a low state to highest state.
    I suggest it is an allusion to a New Revelation which descends in an instant on the Messenger of God.
    It is about having spiritual qualities, such as kindness, forgiveness, generosity,...etc. Some people have more of these qualities, some less. It is how Spiritually Rich vs. poor is defined in Bahai Writings.
     
    #28 InvestigateTruth, Mar 14, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  9. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    As a liberal I vote no, leaving copper in it’s mine molten for seventy years will not cause it to become gold.

    To me the science of Baha’u’llah stands on par with the science of the Quran (ie both fail when compared to modern science).

    Kind regards :)
     
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  10. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    His lack of PhD perhaps

    Or maybe the fact that if it were possible to more than triple the atomic weight of an element, gold would be as cheap as chips
     
  11. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I have given a longer quote from Kitab-i-Iqan or Book of Certitude in a later post for the context for which kindly read my post #18 in this thread, please.

    Regards
     
    #31 paarsurrey, Mar 14, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  12. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Kindly read my post #18 which provides an extended quote and see if one's explanation is still valid, please.

    Regards
     
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  13. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    This part is also symbolic. Scent is another old symbol for the the spirit. I'll look for a reference for it.

    But you asked specifically if:

    "The argument is valid?"

    I mean, it could be from a symbolic perspective.

    The question is, what is the elixir? Are we talking about a messiah, an actual person? Or we talking about an idea? Or are we talking about a series of events?

    The elixir could be a recipe of all those things: the right person / people, in the right place in the right time...

    That's what makes it kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. It can mean so many things.

    But, taking your question seriously.. I will continue:

    this part is about either eternal life or reincarnation? that's the goal of the elixir... that's the purpose of the transmutation? ( I'm putting question marks in here, because, I really have no idea, all this is pure speculation )

    then the whole final paragraph is pretty simple? right?

    Dispensation is a period of time or an era. So the paragraph is talking about comparing people with "good spirit and good qualities" from those of the past to those of the present. It talks about comparing people of "good spirit and good qualities" from western backgrounds to eastern backgrounds. And it says at the end, basically... the form on the outside doesn't matter. It's what's on the inside that counts. The smell is a symbol for the spirit or the soul. It says the soul and spirit of the person are what matters?

    That's it.

    You asked if it's valid? My opinion. From a symbolic perspective, why not?

    In America we have an expression: "Don't judge a book by it's cover." It's universally accepted as true by almost everyone. :)

    Who or what is the "elixir" and who or what is the "touchstone" would be the part that determines whether the entire passage is valid. But the idea is quite universal. That's the point, right?
     
  14. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    There are many forms of transmutation. Here's transmutation through LENR:

    Lattice Energy LLC - Production of Gold via LENR transmutation of Pla…

    There's also transmutation through cavitation of water. Cavitation is what pistol shrimps use to stun their prey:



    "As the bubbles collapse they temporarily reach the temperature of the sun."

    I think what is important is to realize just how much stranger nature can be compared to anything we could have ever imagined!
     
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  15. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Bahaullah insisted, as I understand, that it is not symbolic for which please read post #8 from our friend InvestigateTruth in this thread.

    How will one comment on this , please?

    Regards
     
  16. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Bahaullah has many followers, one of them should think about it, no harm, it is a precious metal. They are welcome to do it.

    Regards
     
  17. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    In post #8, again, the quote there to me is like a blinking neon sign that reads: "SYMBOLISM". It's just the way my brain works. I apologize.

    If you read the passage, using the same symbolism as I presented before, it's pretty easy for me to find value and validity in both passages. From a symbolic point of view, both passages support each other. From a scientific perspective they, forgive me, start to fall apart.

    But that is my own, immature, first take read on it. I hope that's OK.

    I do want to point this out. InvestigateTruth brought a passage that indicates the Elixir may be "Education". If that's true, then again, from a symbolic perspective, both the passage in the OP and the passage in post #8 have merit in my opinion.

     
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  18. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    In the end paarsurry, it is what you get from what is written. Just as it is up to each of us as to what we get from the Quran. What is it that Allah is saying to us and commands us to do?

    Regards Tony
     
  19. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    We should keep in mind that alchemy helped to develop science of Chemistry:

    "A quest for purity

    The word “alchemy” brings to mind a cauldron-full of images: witches hovering over a boiling brew, or perhaps sorcerers in smoky labs or cluttered libraries. Despite these connotations of the mythic and mystical, alchemical practice played an important role in the evolution of modern science.
    Historically, alchemy refers to both the investigation of nature and an early philosophical and spiritual discipline that combined chemistry with metal work. Alchemy also encompassed physics, medicine, astrology, mysticism, spiritualism, and art. The goals of alchemy were:
    to find the “elixir of life” (it was thought that this magical elixir would bring wealth, health, and immortality);
    to find or make a substance called the “philosopher’s stone,” which when heated and combined with “base” (nonprecious metals such as copper and iron) would turn it into gold, thought to be the highest and purest form of matter; and
    to discover the relationship of humans to the cosmos and use that understanding to improve the human spirit.
    Alchemy was scientific but it was also a spiritual tradition. Some of its practitioners had altruistic intentions. For instance, if alchemists could learn the secret of “purifying” base metals into gold, they might gain the ability to purify the human soul. At the same time, alchemy has often been seen as a get-rich-quick scheme and many alchemists as charlatans and pretenders. But many alchemists were in fact serious-minded practitioners whose work helped lay the groundwork for modern chemistry and medicine." Unquote
    From Alchemy to Chemistry

    Regards
     
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  20. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

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    Or maybe it is just ignorance dragged up from the dark
    ages.
     
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