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Featured Is it true?

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by paarsurrey, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I quote from "Kitab-i-Iqan" or the "Book of Certitude" written by Bahaullah:

    “For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold. There are some, however, who maintain that copper itself is gold, which by becoming solidified is in a diseased condition, and hath not therefore reached its own state.

    Be that as it may, the real elixir will, in one instant, cause the substance of copper to attain the state of gold, and will traverse the seventy-year stages in a single moment. Could this gold be called copper? Could it be claimed that it hath not attained the state of gold, whilst the touchstone is at hand to assay it and distinguish it from copper?”*

    Is it true, please?

    Thread open to believers of religion and non-believers.

    Regards

    _____________

    *Page 40 of 72 of English Translation and or Page 132 of 231 of Arabic Translation
     
    #1 paarsurrey, Mar 14, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  2. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Alchemy is a failed game.
     
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  3. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I know absolutely nothing about the text or the author you cited.

    But the 70 year part, and the copper, and the gold all sound like symbolism to me.
     
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  4. icehorse

    icehorse Well-Known Member
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    No, it's not in any way true.
     
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  5. Stanyon

    Stanyon WWMHD?

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    Clerics of the religion of peace had him killed by firing squad, ironic.
     
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  6. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    What is meant by a "state of gold"... I'm not understanding the context.
     
  7. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    If they could do this, everybody would be turning copper into gold.

    Maybe it's meant as a metaphor. 70 years, average life of a person. The aging process from a innocent/ignorant newborn to a wise old man. From inferior copper to superior gold.
     
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  8. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    You can read more about that here:


    Transmutation of elements

    In 1873 Bahá'u'lláh wrote:

    Consider the doubts which they who have joined partners with God have instilled into the hearts of the people of this land. "Is it ever possible," they ask, "for copper to be transmuted into gold?" Say, Yes, by my Lord, it is possible. Its secret, however, lieth hidden in Our Knowledge. We will reveal it unto whom We will. Whoso doubteth Our power, let him ask the Lord his God, that He may disclose unto him the secret, and assure him of its truth. That copper can be turned into gold is in itself sufficient proof that gold can, in like manner, be transmuted into copper, if they be of them that can apprehend this truth. Every mineral can be made to acquire the density, form, and substance of each and every other mineral. The knowledge thereof is with Us in the Hidden Book.[29]

    Bahá'í Faith and science - Wikipedia


    Transmutation - Wikipedia
     
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  9. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    It is not Alchemy that Bahaullah is referring. It is
    Transmutation - Wikipedia
     
  10. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Attempting to transmute a cheap metal into gold was one of the driving forces of alchemy hundreds of years before Bahaullah was a twinkle in his dads eye.

    What is Alchemy?
     
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  11. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    In the past scientist did not know how to transmute elements. Modern science knows.
    Bahaullah is talking about a 70 year process. He is not revealing its details and conditions.
    I think you are confusing traditional desire to get rich by converting copper to gold, with what Bahaullah is talking about, which His purpose is to use this as an analogy. Just as it is possible to convert copper to gold, it is possible to convert the lower spiritual state to a higher level of spirituality, by teachings of Manifestations of God.
     
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  12. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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  13. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    It would be possible, if we will discover how? Baha'u'llah does suggest it may be revealed.

    Precious metals can be made but the cost is more than production at this time

    The science behind the synthesis of precious metals involves the use of either nuclear reactors or particle accelerators to produce these elements.

    Synthesis of precious metals - Wikipedia

    Thus if science meditates upon what Baha'u'llah wrote, it may unlock what needs to be done. My guess is that the unity of the human race is required first, as my thought is the science for this, will also produce our future energy source. Magnetism will play a part.

    Regards Tony
     
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  14. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    When was that?
     
  16. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    That was the Bab, who had come to prepare the way for Baha'u'llah.

    There is truckloads of meaning to unlock from the posted passage. The future will be magnificant!

    Regards Tony
     
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  17. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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  18. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I provide a longer quote so that the context of the argument given by Bahaullah becomes evident:

    Quote,"These same people, though wrapt in all these veils of limitation, and despite the restraint of such observances, as soon as they drank the immortal draft of faith, from the cup of certitude, at the hand of the Manifestation of the All-Glorious, were so transformed that they would renounce for His sake their kindred, their substance, their lives, their beliefs, yea, all else save God! So overpowering was their yearning for God, so uplifting their transports of ecstatic delight, that the world and all that is therein faded before their eyes into nothingness. Have not this people exemplified the mysteries of “rebirth” and “return”? Hath it not been witnessed that these same people, ere they were endued with the new and wondrous grace of God, sought through innumerable devices to ensure the protection of their lives against destruction? Would not a thorn fill them with terror, and the sight of a fox put them to flight? But once having been honored with God’s supreme distinction, and having been vouchsafed His bountiful grace, they would, if they were able, have freely offered up ten thousand lives in His path! Nay, their blessed souls, contemptuous of the cage of their bodies, would yearn for deliverance. A single warrior of that host would face and fight a multitude! And yet, how could they, but for the transformation wrought in their lives, be capable of manifesting such deeds which are contrary to the ways of men and incompatible with their worldly desires?

    It is evident that nothing short of this mystic transformation could cause such spirit and behavior, so utterly unlike their previous habits and manners, to be made manifest in the world of being. For their agitation was turned into peace, their doubt into certitude , their timidity into courage. Such is the potency of the Divine Elixir, which, swift as the twinkling of an eye, transmuteth the souls of men!

    For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold. There are some, however, who maintain that copper itself is gold, which by becoming solidified is in a diseased condition, and hath not therefore reached its own state.

    Be that as it may, the real elixir will, in one instant, cause the substance of copper to attain the state of gold, and will traverse the seventy-year stages in a single moment. Could this gold be called copper? Could it be claimed that it hath not attained the state of gold, whilst the touchstone is at hand to assay it and distinguish it from copper?


    Likewise, these souls, through the potency of the Divine Elixir, traverse, in the twinkling of an eye, the world of dust and advance into the realm of holiness; and with one step cover the earth of limitations and reach the domain of the Placeless. It behooveth thee to exert thine utmost to attain unto this Elixir which, in one fleeting breath, causeth the west of ignorance to reach the east of knowledge, illuminates the darkness of night with the resplendence of the morn, guideth the wanderer in the wilderness of doubt to the wellspring of the Divine Presence and Fount of certitude, and conferreth upon mortal souls the honor of acceptance into the Ridván of immortality. Now, could this gold be thought to be copper, these people could likewise be thought to be the same as before they were endowed with faith.

    O brother, behold how the inner mysteries of “rebirth,” of “return,” and of “resurrection” have each, through these all-sufficing, these unanswerable, and conclusive utterances, been unveiled and unraveled before thine eyes. God grant that through His gracious and invisible assistance, thou mayest divest thy body and soul of the old garment, and array thyself with the new and imperishable attire.

    Therefore, those who in every subsequent Dispensation preceded the rest of mankind in embracing the Faith of God, who quaffed the clear waters of knowledge at the hand of the divine Beauty, and attained the loftiest summits of faith and certitude , these can be regarded, in name, in reality, in deeds, in words, and in rank, as the “return” of those who in a former Dispensation had achieved similar distinctions. For whatsoever the people of a former Dispensation have manifested, the same hath been shown by the people of this latter generation. Consider the rose: whether it blossometh in the East or in the West, it is nonetheless a rose. For what mattereth in this respect is not the outward shape and form of the rose, but rather the smell and fragrance which it doth impart." Unquote.

    Can it be symbolic and the argument is valid, please?

    Regards
     
    #18 paarsurrey, Mar 14, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  19. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Is it? Wow, transmuting copper to gold, fantastic, i wonder why everyone isnt more than tripling the atomic weight of elements?
     
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  20. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    If Copper is a person who is with "poor" spirit. And gold is a person with "good" spirit. And 70 stages are the life span.

    What is the elixir? What is meant by transmute? What is meant by traverse? What is the touchstone? And finally... is it true?

    Adding the question mark at the end... the statement is saying:

    "consider a person of poor spirit. If they are isolated, in their life span, would they become of good spirit?"

    "some people say, people with poor spirit are the same as people with good spirit, but people with poor spirit are diseased and have not reached the state of goodness."

    "the real elixir ( whatever / whomever that is ) will in an instant cause people with poor spirit to become people with good spirit as if they have lived their entire life-span in a single moment."

    "The touchstone is at hand... Good Spirit, Bad Spirit, People are people, potato, pah-tah-toe?"

    Is it true? I don't know. But here is a possible symbolic interpretation of the quote you provided :)

    edit: @paarsurrey , just now reading your post, i was researching and typing...
     
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