Is it true that Torath Mosheh/Orthodox Jews think halakha is complete and unalterable?

[Ehav4Ever]

In order to answer this question, the first consideration would be "What is halakha?" The hebrew term (הלכה) comes from the Hebrew root (ה-ל-ך) meaning "walking; moving towards a goal." Thus, halakha is defined as the process of practice, tradition, rulings, etc. that relates to how Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews do the will Hashem, the basis of which is in the written and oral Torah. Halakha is not the end of it all but the basis, or starting point, that a Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jew uses. Of course there are valid sources of halakha and also invalid sources. Our lives are spent studying, understanding, and putting into practice, as best as possible what we have recevied is valid.

So, because living is a process and living is never complete halakha is also never complete. Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews are required by halakha to evolve with the times and most do. Of course if a pocket of Orthodox Jews decide to not use the advances in technology or advancement in historial understanding that is up to them; and they will either be at a loss in some areas of their lives or they will be perfectly fine. The Talmud is proof of the above concept. At one time the Oral Torah was not written down and a change in the social environment caused it to be written down, in code. Further needs caused their to be additional sources about the code and how to understand it.

Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews hold that any halakha that came from Hashem, the Source of Creation, is unalterable IF Hashem stated that it is unalterable - IF Hashem gave permission that something could be altered then it can be. For example, the 10 Statements/Commands mentioned in Shemoth (Ex.) 20:1-13 are halakha transmitted directly from Hashem to the entire Israeli/Jewish nation at Mount Sinai, the Source of Creation. They cannot be altered because the Source of Creation made it clear that Israel is not to alter them. Far be it from a wise man do not do what the Creator stated; and how illogical would it be to alter something your Creator said not to alter.

The next step of halakha are halalkha that came from Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) and his Court. Since, according to Torath Mosheh sources, Mosheh ben-Amram made rulings based on his direct contact with Hashem, these rulings are also unalterable. Why? Because even though Torath Mosheh Jews learned them from Mosheh ben-Amram and his court - it was proven over and over again during a 40 year period that Mosheh ben-Amram was teaching halakha that he learned from Hashem, and that Hashem approved of what he was transmitting. I.e. the reason why Torah Mosheh Jews throughout history have kept the Shabbat (Sabbath) the way we do is because our ancestors received it, in detail, from Mosheh ben-Amram who had received it from Hashem. Thus, it would be silly to try and change something that Hashem stated won't be changed.

Further, Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews also hold that anoher type of halakha is determined by a Mosaic Court in Jerusalem based on the need of the time and based on rules received from Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) on how to make rulings. This type of halakha can be changed and adjusted, based on the circumstance, but such is only addressed when a Mosaic Court of greater knowledge than the court that instituted them exists. When such a court existed in the land of Israel they were the last stop in the legal system, i.e. a Supreme Court. The current problems of today of unity among Torath Mosheh Jews was due to the two exiles of the Jewish people from the land of Israel, the decimation of centers of science that existed in the North of Israel among the tribe if Yissachar, and also the disbanding of the Mosaic Court in Jerusalem.

So, where does the Talmud fit into all of this? In the absence of a Mosaic Court all Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews who were dispersed throughout the Middle East, North and East Africa, Asia, and Europe more than 1,000 years ago decided to use the rulings found in the Bavli Talmud UNTIL there is again a Mosaic Court. Lastly, Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews hold that when there is again a "valid" Mosaic Court in Jerusalem we [Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews] go by their rulings on Halakha. Yet, w/o being in the land of Israel with a Mosaic Court a situation exists similar to what is mentioed in Shoftim (Judges) 17:6. I.e. "there was no king in Israel and what someone saw was right in their owns they did."

The ideal situation for the Torath Mosheh Jew is a return to how things were between Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua) and Shelomo HaMelekh, at the height of his kingdom. I.e. if you were to take the two best moments of the time of Yehoshua bin-Nun in terms of a prophet who was just below Mosheh Rabbeinu and the wisdom of Shelomo HaMelekh during the height of his rule, you will get a good way to conceptual the best of possible situations.

One source for what I wrote above is the Rambam's Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Mamrim chapters 1-3. Here is a part of it:

"The Supreme Sanhedrin in Jerusalem are the essence of the Oral Law. They are the pillars of instruction from whom statutes and judgments issue forth for the entire Jewish people. Concerning them, the Torah promises Deuteronomy 17:11: "You shall do according to the laws which they shall instruct you...." This is a positive commandment.

Whoever believes in Moses and in his Torah is obligated to make all of his religious acts dependent on this court and to rely on them.

Any person who does not carry out their directives transgresses a negative commandment, as Ibid. continues: "Do not deviate from any of the statements they relate to you, neither right nor left."

We are obligated to heed their words whether they:
a) learned them from the Oral Tradition, i.e., the Oral Law, (From Hashem)
b) derived them on the basis of their own knowledge through one of the attributes of Torah exegesis and it appeared to them that this is the correct interpretation of the matter,
c) instituted the matter as a safeguard for the Torah, as was necessary at a specific time. These are the decrees, edicts, and customs instituted by the Sages.

It is a positive commandment to heed the court with regard to each of these three matters. A person who transgresses any of these types of directives transgresses a negative commandment. This is derived from the continuation of the above verse in the following manner: "According to the laws which they shall instruct you" - this refers to the edicts, decrees, and customs which they instruct people at large to observe to strengthen the faith and perfect the world. "According to the judgment which they relate" - this refers to the matters which they derive through logical analysis employing one of the methods of Torah exegesis. "From all things that they will tell you" - This refers to the tradition which they received one person from another."​

 

[rosends]

Halacha, like civil law, is highly complex and evolving. Like civil law, there are a variety of types and sources and on top of all that there is a precedent system which can make local rulings locally binding but not necessarily generalizable. There are codes of law, interpretations and applications if law that change at times. There are customs which are elevated to the level of law. Sort of.

The absolutist notion that oral law and/or halacha is final and fixed is wrong. But change is often a slow, and limited process.

 

[Sedim Haba]

Thank you for this.

I am somewhat embarrassed that I have never heard of 'Torath Mosheh' in that exact term before I met you.

Is it a community? Is there any info here or external links you can recommend?

Shalom

 

[rational experiences]

Did the mountain gods law shift?

No. The mountain remained fused.

Did the law O earth gods body became dusts actualise?

Yes. When?

When the UFO ark was ending life dusts became dusts again as the mountain face fell at its feet. Disintegrated.

Proving no man began with dusts.

 

[Harel13]

The ideal situation for the Torath Mosheh Jew is a return to how things were between Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua) and Shelomo HaMelekh, at the height of his kingdom.

Excuse me, but I find this doubtful. During most of this era, there was no centralized authority. The verse you brought clearly bears witness to this, and there are other verses that attest to this. Perhaps you mean the ideal situation is what theoretically should have happened at the time, and did eventually happen circa the end of Eli's life-the beginning of Shmuel's time and continued until the last years of Shlomo.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Thank you for this.

I am somewhat embarrassed that I have never heard of 'Torath Mosheh' in that exact term before I met you.

Is it a community? Is there any info here or external links you can recommend?

Shalom

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Excuse me, but I find this doubtful. During most of this era, there was no centralized authority. The verse you brought clearly bears witness to this, and there are other verses that attest to this. Perhaps you mean the ideal situation is what theoretically should have happened at the time, and did eventually happen circa the end of Eli's life-the beginning of Shmuel's time and continued until the last years of Shlomo.

Between meaning, a mix of or similar to. Not between in terms of time frame.

I.e. if you were to take the two best moments of the time of Yehoshua bin-Nun in terms of a prophet who was just below Mosheh Rabbeinu and the wisdom of Shelomo HaMelekh during the height of his rule, you will get a good way to conceptual the best of possible situations.

 

[Harel13]

Between meaning, a mix of or similar to. Not between in terms of time frame.

I.e. if you were to take the two best moments of the time of Yehoshua bin-Nun in terms of a prophet who was just below Mosheh Rabbeinu and the wisdom of Shelomo HaMelekh during the height of his rule, you will get a good way to conceptual the best of possible situations.

I see. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

 

[Kenny]

In order to answer this question, the first consideration would be "What is halakha?" The hebrew term (הלכה) comes from the Hebrew root (ה-ל-ך) meaning "walking; moving towards a goal." Thus, halakha is defined as the process of practice, tradition, rulings, etc. that relates to how Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews do the will Hashem, the basis of which is in the written and oral Torah. Halakha is not the end of it all but the basis, or starting point, that a Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jew uses. Of course there are valid sources of halakha and also invalid sources. Our lives are spent studying, understanding, and putting into practice, as best as possible what we have received is valid. et al

When HaShem spoke to Jeremiah and said:
Jeremiah 31:31

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,"

Which was Covenant was going to be changed? (Were there laws attached to the covenant?)

 

[Ehav4Ever]

When HaShem spoke to Jeremiah and said:
Jeremiah 31:31

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,"

Which was Covenant was going to be changed? (Were there laws attached to the covenant?)

Hello KenS. The key is going to always be starting at the begenning of the chapter and going to the end. I.e. Yirmeyahu 31:1-39. Even Yirmeyahu 31:30-33 explains what is meant, I.e.

I have bracketed in red where Hashem explains what the (ברית) agreement/covanent would be and when it would take place. (in the Hebrew text verses 32 and 33) Yet, you will notice that I highlighted one word in yellow. That word is (תורתי) "my Torah". Thus, the (ברית) Brith/covament/agreement is one thing and the (תורה) Torah is a different thing.

I.e. the new agreement/covanent is that Hashem would cause a situation where both the kingdom of Yehudah (Judah) and Yisrael (Northern tribes) would be reunited in the land of Israel. i.e. (ימות משיח) "Messianic Era" with the restoration of the Torah based nation in the land of Israel and the agreement for that era is the Torah (the mitzvoth) will be established in way so that Israel won't be disloyal to the Torah again. I.e. in the future Messianic Era a situation like the Golden Calf will not happen. In the future Messianic Era a situation like the rebellion of Korach, like the exiles won't happen. A situation like the spies won't happen, etc.

There is a rabbi who once said that the Jewish generation that could return to the land of Israel and make the national choice to return to the Torah, under the modern situation, will be stronger than the generation that received the Torah at Mount Sinai. I.e. the ability for a modern Jewish generation to return to the Torah under the current circumstances is stronger than the generation that actually heard the voice of Hashem. The reason is that this generation has to overcome a stronger obsticle to go back to the Torah.

The following videos may help.

 

[Kenny]

There is a rabbi who once said that the Jewish generation that could return to the land of Israel and make the national choice to return to the Torah, under the modern situation, will be stronger than the generation that received the Torah at Mount Sinai. I.e. the ability for a modern Jewish generation to return to the Torah under the current circumstances is stronger than the generation that actually heard the voice of Hashem. The reason is that this generation has to overcome a stronger obsticle to go back to the Torah.

I do pray that it does come to pass in our lifetime! IMV it will be a beautiful thing!

I will look at the video -- time, thanksgiving, events... might take me a little while.

 

[dybmh]

there is a precedent system

Where is this compiled?

 

[rosends]

Where is this compiled?

often in compilations of She'eilot V'Tshuvot, responsa issued by rabbis in answer to specific questions, some of which establishes precedents in the interpretation of later law.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Further proof that Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews do not consider halakha to be complete and unalterable but instead a living process that starts with doing the Torah as Hashem, the Source of Creation, gave it at Mount Sinai. The below article discusses, in detail the process used by Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jew in deciding how to use/or not use electricity on Shabbat (Sabbath).

The Use of Electricity on Shabbat / Rabbi Michael Broyde & Rabbi Howard Jachter and Yom Tov

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The following is a translation from Hebrew of what Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon (1138–1204 CE) wrote in the Mishnah Torah - Introduction. It describes how all Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews becamed united in using the Bavli Talmud, as I mentioned before.

"After the court of Rav Ashi composed the Talmud and completed it in the time of his son, the Jewish people became further dispersed throughout all the lands, reaching the distant extremes and the far removed islands. Strife sprung up throughout the world, and the paths of travel became endangered by troops. Torah study decreased and the Jews ceased entering their yeshivot in the thousands and myriads, as was customary previously.

Instead, individuals, the remnants whom Hashem called, would gather in each city and country, occupy themselves in Torah study, and [devote themselves] to understanding the texts of the Sages and learning the path of judgment from them. ​

Every court that was established after the conclusion of the Talmud, regardless of the country in which it was established, issued decrees, enacted ordinances, and established customs for the people of that country - or those of several countries. These practices, however, were not accepted throughout the Jewish people, because of the distance between [their different] settlements and the disruption of communication [between them].

Since each of these courts were considered to be individuals - and the High Court of 71 judges (Mosaic Court in Jerusalem/Sanhedrin) had been defunct for many years before the composition of the Talmud - people in one country could not be compelled to follow the practices of another country, nor is one court required to sanction decrees which another court had declared in its locale. Similarly, if one of the Geonim interpreted the path of judgment in a certain way, while the court which arose afterward interpreted the proper approach to the matter in a different way, the [opinion of the] first [need] not be adhered to [absolutely]. Rather, whichever [position] appears to be correct - whether the first or the last - is accepted.

These [principles apply regarding] the judgments, decrees, ordinances, and customs which were established after the conclusion of the Talmud. However, all the matters mentioned by the Babylonian Talmud are incumbent on the entire Jewish people to follow. (Ehav Ever's Note: Meaning Jews who claim to hold by the Torah that Hashem gave at Mount Sinai.) We must compel each and every city and each country to accept all the customs that were put into practice by the Sages of the Talmud, to pass decrees parallelling their decrees, and to observe their ordinances, since all the matters in the Babylonian Talmud were accepted by the entire Jewish people.

The [Talmudic] Sages who established ordinances and decrees, put customs into practice, arrived at legal decisions, and taught [the people] concerning certain judgments represented the totality of the Sages of Israel or, at least, the majority of them. They received the tradition regarding the fundamental aspects of the Torah in its entirety, generation after generation, [in a chain beginning with] Mosheh (Moses), our teacher."​

The above is a short history, and of course not the full story of where Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews are united and why there exists some areas where we are divided, due to the exiles fromt the land of Israel and not having a Mosaic Court/Sanhedrin in Jerusalem.