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Is it time to punish false accusers of rape/sexual assault?

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Well at least the UK has it right. For me I wouldn't care about money. To attain compensatory damages may take a long time and by then you're in the unemployment line trying to make whatever money you can while the person here is scott free.
Are you in the USA?
The USA has been losing quite a lot of points (imo) over human rights issues, just recently.

In addition to the UK crime of 'perversion of the course of justice', there is a protection against continuous and malicious complaints in the Civil Courts here. Any Judge can name a vituperative complainant 'Vexatious Litigant', and then this will always be taken in to account in any future Civil actions.

If people can make false allegations against others, totally scot-free from any later responsibilities, then that is just a disgrace and breach of human rights.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I have patient charts to read. Where within that does it specifically denote in the case of the thread?

Simple that there are restrictions which vary from state to state regarding libel. It is hard to prove but it exists.


Time is based on a lot of factors one of which depends on the skill set of the one terminated. The case is far more difficult than you think.

That is a general problem the person must face in the market anyways. The termination puts them in that position but has little to do with their skill sets being in demand or lack of skills. The difficulty in the case is the justice system being slow, burden of proof and finding a lawyer. Many lawyers will decline risking the money-time investment if they do not think there is a case. More to the point. If someone can not establish liable for termination how can they claim monetary loss due to the accusation itself? These are all linked and part of due process. So

We don't have to take the MOB's principles into account. I'm sure any news outlet could make you look like a villain and have people believe it.

When they act we do, obviously. People are not absolved of their own free will nor responsibility because they happen to be stupid and easy to fooled.

I thought you were a free speech advocate? Now you're prepared to have government control social media?


I am. I will clarify.

Publishers must follow different laws than platforms do. Platforms can not censor/decline content they disagree with such as politics. Publishers can decline service for political reasons. Social media acts as both when it suits their argument. They are a publisher when it is a conservative but a platform for hateful views from the left as most of social media is on the left, thus hypocrites. Government is only involved by forcing those companies to pick between one or the other and enforcing regulations/laws.

More this will help break the social media monopolies but this is more of a desire of my via the action described above
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Are you in the USA?
The USA has been losing quite a lot of points (imo) over human rights issues, just recently.

In addition to the UK crime of 'perversion of the course of justice', there is a protection against continuous and malicious complaints in the Civil Courts here. Any Judge can name a vituperative complainant 'Vexatious Litigant', and then this will always be taken in to account in any future Civil actions.

If people can make false allegations against others, totally scot-free from any later responsibilities, then that is just a disgrace and breach of human rights.

Yes I'm in the United States.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Simple that there are restrictions which vary from state to state regarding libel. It is hard to prove but it exists.

In other words you cannot pinpoint it out, got it.

That is a general problem the person must face in the market anyways. The termination puts them in that position but has little to do with their skill sets being in demand or lack of skills. The difficulty in the case is the justice system being slow, burden of proof and finding a lawyer. Many lawyers will decline risking the money-time investment if they do not think there is a case. More to the point. If someone can not establish liable for termination how can they claim monetary loss due to the accusation itself? These are all linked and part of due process.

Which is what I was implying earlier with @Curious George concerning how false accusations and applying criminal punishment must be based on the severity of the harm that has been done. Sure, you can sue for libel/slander/defamation, but at that point you're out of a job could've spent some time in jail, may have a criminal record that you yourself have to get expunged. All of which requires, money, time and patience. While your freedom was temporarily suspended the accuser is free with no criminal repercussions. This is why at the beginning I pointed out this important piece:

"Right now, accusers who lie about sexual abuse are criminally liable for filing a false report and perjury, as well as civil sanctions for defamation, but legal consequences rarely occur."

Source: Is it time to punish false accusers?

I suspect the average working adult does not have time or financial resources to pursue compensatory damages. This is why criminal charges should take precedence because not only is the city/state time is wasted on misappropriated judicial retribution, but all parties are affected and thus harmed by the process.


When they act we do, obviously. People are not absolved of their own free will nor responsibility because they happen to be stupid and easy to fooled.

So you say, but I'm sure there is a news outlet that you have some faith in that reports on various incidents that you believe in" without immediately challenging the information you're being fed so in the case, who is being fooled and who is the fool?

Publishers must follow different laws than platforms do. Platforms can not censor/decline content they disagree with such as politics.

Actually they can if the content violates their terms of service. There are political far-right movements in Europe that espouse neo-Nazi rhetoric. To use the same rhetoric and post on a media platform violates the rules.

They are a publisher when it is a conservative but a platform for hateful views from the left as most of social media is on the left, thus hypocrites.

I'm not surprised the above highlighted which is rather idiotic to even say, was even said here. Hateful rhetoric? I guess websites like stormfront, chimpout and other far-right white supremacist platforms as well as conservative websites containing racial, anti-Semitic, and homophobic undertones are not hateful? Give me a freggin break.
 

TheresOnlyNow

The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think
They should all be prosecuted for false accusations. It is against the law to make a false police report. Punishable even by jail time.

Also, those who lie about sexual assault and rape are demeaning actual survivors of rape and sexual assault. So yes, it should be a matter of fact that anyone who lies about sexual assault and/or rape does time.
And they should also be civilly liable. Meaning, their assets should be attached, even if they pull the old trick of signing their possessions over to someone else to avoid attachment, so that the victim(s) of their lies are "made whole" (a legal term) for the offense(s) against them.

And of course the media coverage walk of shame is a given. As well as the false accuser image being broadcast and published in print media every step of the way.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
In other words you cannot pinpoint it out, got it.

No. I already told at will employment still must follow many existing laws. You can read each source for yourself. Neither is long at all. You refusing to read something is not an argument.


Which is what I was implying earlier with @Curious George concerning how false accusations and applying criminal punishment must be based on the severity of the harm that has been done. Sure, you can sue for libel/slander/defamation, but at that point you're out of a job could've spent some time in jail, may have a criminal record that you yourself have to get expunged. One must establish they were harmed. All of which requires, money, time and patience. While your freedom was temporarily suspended the accuser is free with no criminal repercussions. This is why at the beginning I pointed out this important piece:

"Right now, accusers who lie about sexual abuse are criminally liable for filing a false report and perjury, as well as civil sanctions for defamation, but legal consequences rarely occur."

This comes down to enforcement issues and how women are treated different in the legal system. I am in favour of enforcing existing laws and removing the bias in favour of women in general.



I suspect the average working adult does not have time or financial resources to pursue compensatory damages. This is why criminal charges should take precedence because not only is the city/state time is wasted on misappropriated judicial retribution, but all parties are affected and thus harmed by the process.

Sure as this is a common problem itself. The State has an extraordinary amount of resources when prosecuting. The false accuser, rape context, is more likely to have external support if they are women. It is an uphill battle.


So you say, but I'm sure there is a news outlet that you have some faith in that reports on various incidents that you believe in" without immediately challenging the information you're being fed so in the case, who is being fooled and who is the fool?

I have no faith in news media. Why would I trust an industry which has become mostly tabloids as the legacy model collapses?


Actually they can if the content violates their terms of service. There are political far-right movements in Europe that espouse neo-Nazi rhetoric. To use the same rhetoric and post on a media platform violates the rules.

I am not talking about terms of service. I am talking about Google, twitter and FB political bias which is outside terms of service.


I'm not surprised the above highlighted which is rather idiotic to even say, was even said here. Hateful rhetoric? I guess websites like stormfront, chimpout and other far-right white supremacist platforms as well as conservative websites containing racial, anti-Semitic, and homophobic undertones are not hateful? Give me a freggin break.

This is nothing but a response to a strawman in your head. Did I say Nazi's? No. Did I say anti-semtism? No. I pointed out all those sites ignore the left's rhetoric as the organizations are run by leftists. Go look up some of the stuff said about those Catholic kids. Threats of violence, expressions of joy over their death, offering money in return for violence against the students. I was pointing there is no balance in application of rules as leftist has zero issue with calls to violence from their own. These statements stay around for days with no issue. Only when fake news was exposed, again, did those statements start to be deleted. I was advocating for balance but you went straight into leftist rhetoric.


Try again you leftist hack.
 
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Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
No. I already told at will employment still must follow many existing laws. You can read each source for yourself. Neither is long at all. You refusing to read something is not an argument.


The whole aspect about supporting one's argument is to have specific evidence that relates to one's argument. you hd several sources which were general which had nothing to do with your argument. You're not a legal expert therefore considering your admission, instead of relying on you to be honest and simply say "you don't know," you post several links and expect me to read several different links to understand what you're talking about.

This is not how things work when debating a point....

Let me help you and show you how to argue a point....

For example, my position regarding being fired after being falsely accused is thus: The time it takes to demonstrate proof after being fired as well as arrested may hinder one to take action against the accuser because of the lack of resources. More importantly, being publicly sentenced (via social media) and thus losing one's job is in itself harming the one being accused therefore the punishment (if such a law would come into existence) against the one doing the accusing and thus determined by arbitration to be ultimately false must fit the crime.

But what about getting one's job back after being fired?

This is where a simple research on your end comes into play as I clearly wrote in google "what do you do if you are fasely accused of rape but get fired?"

Several links came up.....

In my brief research, according to my state's several attorney sources being accused of rape (falsely) is a common occurrence in California. But in regards to at-will employment at least in California, you can only sue for wrongful termination under the following:

"You may feel that you have been framed and you can do nothing about proving that you haven’t done anything wrong. However, in most cases, if you are an at-will employee, this type of termination would not be consider unlawful, however unfair it might seem. There are a few exception to this, most of which fall into two categories.
  • There is specific evidence that the real reason for termination is discriminatory or retaliatory, i.e. due to your age, disability, race, sexual orientation, filing a workers comp claim, or making certain protected complaints or disclosures. Of course, simple having a disability, or being of a particular race or age doesn’t prove that that’s the reason you were false accused of something. There has to be evidence that links the employer’s motive to terminate you with discrimination or retaliation. These can be e-mails, text messages, social media postings containing statements by the decision makers that they had it out for you due to a discriminatory reason, or witnesses who overheard conversations by managers suggesting that the true reason for your termination was discriminatory.
  • The employer defamed you by accusing you of fraud, theft or other crimes and stating those accusations orally or in writing to people outside of this employer (i.e. to potential employers, customers, etc…). Or, the false accusations about you were made internally only, but there is specific evidence that you were accused for improper reason, i.e. the manager who accused you had it out for you due to prior history of conflicts between the two of you."
Source:Is Being Fired Due To False Accusations A Wrongful Termination

In other words, as an at-will employee it is highly unlikely you'll get your job back or can sue because someone falsely accused you of sexual assault. See how simple that is? Instead of several links just post the damn information.

This comes down to enforcement issues and how women are treated different in the legal system. I am in favour of enforcing existing laws and removing the bias in favour of women in general.


Enforcing what existing laws? Any laws on this matter is either a simple civil suit or a misdemeanor. In my state California, filing a false police report in cases of sexual assault results in a misdemeanor in CA Penal code section 148.5 makes filing a false police report a misdemeanor in which the person may face a fine and up to six months in county jail. Hardly comparable to the actual harm that is meted out from the false accusation. So you're in favor of someone who can falsely accuse someone and that person spends five years in prison, gets vindicated, has to find legal counsel, spends time and money only for the one who made the false accusation spend only six months in jail? That is fair to you?

I am not talking about terms of service. I am talking about Google, twitter and FB political bias which is outside terms of service.

What political bias? Can you prove bias or is this another right-wing conservative cry baby whining?

This is nothing but a response to a strawman in your head. Did I say Nazi's? No. Did I say anti-semtism? No. I pointed out all those sites ignore the left's rhetoric as the organizations are run by leftists. Go look up some of the stuff said about those Catholic kids. Threats of violence, expressions of joy over their death, offering money in return for violence against the students. I was pointing there is no balance in application of rules as leftist has zero issue with calls to violence from their own. These statements stay around for days with no issue. Only when fake news was exposed, again, did those statements start to be deleted. I was advocating for balance but you went straight into leftist rhetoric.


Try again you leftist hack.

You cried:

"Social media acts as both when it suits their argument. They are a publisher when it is a conservative but a platform for hateful views from the left as most of social media is on the left, thus hypocrites. Government is only involved by forcing those companies to pick between one or the other and enforcing regulations/laws."

First off you have no proof of the political leans of social media. Second, you cannot prove what the hell you're talking about what you say "all those sites ignores the left's rhetoric" what rhetoric? What organizations are you referring to? You don't even know what the hell you are talking about.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
The whole aspect about supporting one's argument is to have specific evidence that relates to one's argument. you hd several sources which were general which had nothing to do with your argument.

Wrong. You didn't read clearly. I provided those links to demonstrate that laws such as anti-discrimination are applicable to At Will employment.

You're not a legal expert therefore considering your admission, instead of relying on you to be honest and simply say "you don't know," you post several links and expect me to read several different links to understand what you're talking about.

Wrong as I did provide links. Try again. Maybe read?

This is not how things work when debating a point....

We are not debating as I mostly agree with you....

Let me help you and show you how to argue a point....

Laughable from someone that couldn't figure out he is arguing with someone that mostly agrees with his views.

For example, my position regarding being fired after being falsely accused is thus: The time it takes to demonstrate proof after being fired as well as arrested may hinder one to take action against the accuser because of the lack of resources. More importantly, being publicly sentenced (via social media) and thus losing one's job is in itself harming the one being accused therefore the punishment (if such a law would come into existence) against the one doing the accusing and thus determined by arbitration to be ultimately false must fit the crime.

That is not arguing a point that is laying out a situation. Laughable again.

But what about getting one's job back after being fired?

Won't happen. It isn't the purpose of the courts to get a job back but to punish and compensate one for the loss.

This is a question...

In my brief research, according to my state's several attorney sources being accused of rape (falsely) is a common occurrence in California. But in regards to at-will employment at least in California, you can only sue for wrongful termination under the following:

"You may feel that you have been framed and you can do nothing about proving that you haven’t done anything wrong. However, in most cases, if you are an at-will employee, this type of termination would not be consider unlawful, however unfair it might seem. There are a few exception to this, most of which fall into two categories.
  • There is specific evidence that the real reason for termination is discriminatory or retaliatory, i.e. due to your age, disability, race, sexual orientation, filing a workers comp claim, or making certain protected complaints or disclosures. Of course, simple having a disability, or being of a particular race or age doesn’t prove that that’s the reason you were false accused of something. There has to be evidence that links the employer’s motive to terminate you with discrimination or retaliation. These can be e-mails, text messages, social media postings containing statements by the decision makers that they had it out for you due to a discriminatory reason, or witnesses who overheard conversations by managers suggesting that the true reason for your termination was discriminatory.
  • The employer defamed you by accusing you of fraud, theft or other crimes and stating those accusations orally or in writing to people outside of this employer (i.e. to potential employers, customers, etc…). Or, the false accusations about you were made internally only, but there is specific evidence that you were accused for improper reason, i.e. the manager who accused you had it out for you due to prior history of conflicts between the two of you."
Source:Is Being Fired Due To False Accusations A Wrongful Termination

Congratulations on repeating what my links provided.

In other words, as an at-will employee it is highly unlikely you'll get your job back or can sue because someone falsely accused you of sexual assault. See how simple that is? Instead of several links just post the damn information.

Wrongful termination cases are not about getting a job back. Courts can not force employment.

Not my problem you are too lazy to read 3 tiny articles.

Enforcing what existing laws? Any laws on this matter is either a simple civil suit or a misdemeanor. In my state California, filing a false police report in cases of sexual assault results in a misdemeanor in CA Penal code section 148.5 makes filing a false police report a misdemeanor in which the person may face a fine and up to six months in county jail. Hardly comparable to the actual harm that is meted out from the false accusation. So you're in favor of someone who can falsely accuse someone and that person spends five years in prison, gets vindicated, has to find legal counsel, spends time and money only for the one who made the false accusation spend only six months in jail? That is fair to you?

Fair is irrelevant. Justice is relevant. So what do you want to see? 10 years? Massive fines?



What political bias? Can you prove bias or is this another right-wing conservative cry baby whining?

https://gizmodo.com/former-facebook-workers-we-routinely-suppressed-conser-1775461006



You cried:

"Social media acts as both when it suits their argument. They are a publisher when it is a conservative but a platform for hateful views from the left as most of social media is on the left, thus hypocrites. Government is only involved by forcing those companies to pick between one or the other and enforcing regulations/laws."

First off you have no proof of the political leans of social media.

Wrong. Hilarious as well. You asked for evidence of this just above but now declare I have no evidence....

Second, you cannot prove what the hell you're talking about what you say "all those sites ignores the left's rhetoric" what rhetoric? What organizations are you referring to? You don't even know what the hell you are talking about.

Wrong. Look at the twitter during the whole Catholic Kids fake news.

FB. Twitter and Google.

I know exactly what I am talking about. You not believing me is not evidence of my knowledge. Try again.

You missed my larger point. You went straight to Nazi comparison when I said conservative. Which shows how you think or rather lack of....
 
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