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Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Conscious thoughts, Apr 15, 2021.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    You never know brother. You never know.
     
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  2. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

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    Hatred can never be overcome with hatred. Hatred can only be overcome with love. This is a universal law.

    - The Dhammapada
     
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  3. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Thats wrong translation really. The word hatred seems okay, although it should be something like anger towards someone which is more appropriate. Nevertheless, the word "love" is absolutely inappropriate there.
     
  4. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Out of curiosity Restlesssoul, could you please give me an idea which translation you used? This is a personal request if you dont mind.
     
  5. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

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    Translation by Jao Mascaro, though I have seen other translations, all of which use the words hatred and love.


    I have no Sanskrit though, so have to trust the translators.
     
    #65 RestlessSoul, Apr 16, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  6. passerby

    passerby Member

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    We cannot rise above our humanity. We can only strive to be perfect but only God is perfect. Recently I came into contact with an old childhood friend- at first it was great to be back in touch, but gradually I came to realise I didn't like this person. She really wound me up. I really wanted to get on with her and thought I'd failed because as hard as I tried I couldn't. After a lot of thought and prayer I decided the only thing to do was back off. It was doing neither of us any good. Now I feel the best and maybe only thing is to avoid people who provoke those sorts of feelings in me. I wish her no harm, but there is no point in trying to like her. Avoiding toxic and hurtful people shows we love ourselves and are limited in what we can do for them. Leave that to God.
     
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  7. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Is that Juan Mascaro? I have not read his translation.

    One thing I would like to state is that translating this particular verse in the Dhammapada, he has erred. Or at least he has made interpretations, not translation. For example, it does not say "hatred'. It is vairaya. Verena. It means anger towards a person. Of course you could interpret it as hatred, but when you think from the language, it actually means a little different. Thats alright.

    Love??? The word here is Avairaya or averena. It does not mean love. No way. It is the non-existence of anger. Do you understand? Non-existence of anger does not mean love. He has interpreted it as love for what ever reason. It is wrong.

    This verse is in the Dhammapada, which is in the Khuddaka Nikaaya of the Sutra Pitaka. Love is Prema, and the translator has not understood the background of this writing.

    In order to understand what this says, it is very important to make this distinction. Yet, I just took the liberty to correct this. No offence. And you gave a fabulous verse, one of the most famous ones.

    Just following through, the last part of that translation "universal law" is wrong in my opinion. There is nothing about universal in the verse. It is siddhantha, or root, or even fundamental. Not universal. Some times you could think of it as "Old" or existing from the beginning.

    Cheers.
     
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  8. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    What other translations? Please quote.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That's nothing to be sorry about.
    I am sorry, I got you mixed up with another member who is Catholic and has a name similar to yours.
     
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  10. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    There are many kind of enemies. Personal enemies (I too have none); cultural enemies, national enemies (yes, we have them).
     
  11. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

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    Couldn’t tell you off the top of my head, as I’m at work. I have another translation at home, can’t remember who by I’m afraid.

    If you can recommend a particular English translation, I’d be grateful.
     
  12. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    Honestly i dont see anyone or country as an enemy of me. Of course i can not say what the country i stay in see as enemy
     
  13. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Nice, I did not know that you are a scholar of Buddhism. 'Vairya' and 'avairya' in Sanskrit mean enmity or absence of it.
    Sanskrit Dictionary for Spoken Sanskrit
     
  14. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I honestly don't know brother. I will have to ask someone. But if I do and get one, I will share with you. I checked up another translation by Max Muller which reads the same as yours.

    One thing I can say confidently is that the translation is wrong. It is interpretation, not translation.
     
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  15. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Of course. A is like La in arabic. Like Aghosha. No loud sound. Avishvasa. No trust.

    I am no scholar of Buddhism brother.
     
  16. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

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    I think there is an element of interpretation in all translation, because so many words and phrases in a particular language have no direct equivalent in another.
     
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  17. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Absolutely. But this is plain wrong. I understand that there is always interpretation when translating from a language so foreign like Pali to English. But the use of the word love is the exact opposite. I dont know whether to call it interpretation or projection.

    Let me give you an example of an interpretation.

    Sutta Pitaka, Khuddhaka Nikaya, Dammapada, yamaka vaggo, verse 5 you quoted. It speaks of "averen" or "avairaya". A translation would be "the non-existence of anger", yet an interpretation would be "Shanthi or calm due to shedding of anger". Love, is a mistranslation. Hatred is an interpretation.

    Anyway, we would end up going in circles. I am just on a rant because this surprised me. I dont know which world I have been living in but I have in my life never seen that interpretation. Maybe because Buddhism is discussed so rarely that I have not come across this type of translation, and according to you, there are many.

    Anyway, thanks for the information. Appreciate it.
     
    #77 firedragon, Apr 16, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
  18. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    We could just stop the person from killing everyone. Maybe send him to an island or lock him away. Whichever way you look at it, loving everyone can be a tough job especially if not everyone else is the same. Having to protect people from the injustices of others can make me look like I do not love the person I am stopping from being mean.
     
  19. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    We do not need to love their action or words :) but the human as a human in my view
     
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  20. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

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    Arnold Schwarzenegger tried to do that (love everyone). In fact, the maid's son is the spitting image of him.

    True love doesn't involve just satisfying lust (though those in love satisfy every aspect of their lives with each other). The caring that we have for all of society is very special.

    I see kids come out of a Catholic church, then toss candy wrappers on the ground. Sure, it's pollution, but it is an even worse type of pollution....pollution of the soul. It means that they don't care enough about other people to keep the world a tidy place.

    To hate is to judge.

    "Judge not, lest ye be judged" (Jesus, Sermon on the Mount).

    Yet, if we don't judge God and Jesus, we would not judge them to be good and wholesome. If we don't judge the devil, we won't recognize him. If we don't judge someone who is "fightin' evil" we might mistake them for a righteous man, rather than a tool of the devil who makes wars against innocent nations.

    We, therefore, have to judge, in our own hearts, but just not bad-mouth others publicly. For example, when President W. Bush called various Iraqis names (Dr. Evil, Dr. Death, et al) he motivated wars against them, and that killed perhaps a million innocent Iraqi people (some were innocent women and children). Of course, that also involved "bearing false witness" (taboo under the 10 commandments).

    If we don't judge others, we follow them, and that harms others (it is sinning).

    The ability not to hate someone is also the ability to ignore their crimes, and to aid and abet them in further crimes.
     
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