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Featured Is it possible to understand what Allah/God is?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Conscious thoughts, Apr 7, 2021 at 4:36 AM.

  1. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    But you just said that they do.

    The phrase "God is infinite" describes what God is (infinite, in this case). If you mean something else, maybe clearer language would express your intended meaning better.

    From your descriptions, I can't tell what concepts you're using, so I have no idea whether that's the case.
     
  2. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Mihi Quaestio Factus Sum

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    God is infinite but his infinity is not what he is in his essence; in his fundamental nature as God which is unknowable. I am Australian but my being Australian has nothing to do with my fundamental nature as a human. It is simply an attribute I happen to hold.
     
  3. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    So you've defined "essence" in terms of "fundamental nature" - another term that you haven't defined and whose definition isn't apparent to me.

    Still not sure what you mean by any of this.

    How do you decide which aspects of a person or deity are or aren't part of their "fundamental nature"?
     
  4. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe God is a Spirit but no-one knows what that is. All we know are His attributes.
     
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  5. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that is a fantasy.
     
  6. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    How do you know God is infinite? How do you know Gods "fundamental nature" is unknowable? How do you know Gods infinity isn't his "fundamental nature"?
     
  7. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe they came up with a god particle but they didn't say there was any relation to God.
     
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  8. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the Upanishads are just human philosophy and are often wrong.
     
  9. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    People have made way too much out of the term "The God Particle."

    Researchers started calling the Higgs Boson "the God-damned Particle" because it was so elusive. That got sanitized to "the God Particle" when they talked to the press. That's the whole story; it has nothing to do with God.
     
  10. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I offer my opinion. Please be gentle.
    Hopefully not in my opinion. 'God' is a word, an approach to an idea about something we can't see. For practical purposes it is, among other ideas, the idea that ultimate authority rests with no person, nor can any person define for others what is right and wrong. We can enforce laws and make laws, but we can't make things good or bad. We can't say that we have divine right to rule unless that is granted to us by a higher authority. This is an important idea in the legal processes where I live and in in many places. Its not embraced everywhere. Its a religiously based idea but also one which functions as the backbone of many legal systems. Here the government derives its authority from the people, but people are sworn in with "So help me God" which in law is not the name of someone but the idea that there is an authority above the people.




    Is 'Allah' a name? 'God' isn't. It is an idea implying many things including that the divine cannot be expressed in words alone.

    Does Allah teach anything which conflicts with the philosophically derived concept God? Some would say yes. For one thing Allah apparently teaches that believers are morally superior to nonbelievers, though I am not an expert on the Quran. I think have read some Quran passages indicating this, and it troubles me. This conflicts with God the concept in many NT texts. It may also conflict with the philosophically derived understanding of God, but I am not an expert on that. That would be something to inquire about with someone familiar with how that is derived.

    Some people believe that certain races have superior moral character or that some bloodlines have. This has been the cause of much misfortune in this world among Christians, and I think it is incompatible with a successful church. With people who believe in God this is a malady which afflicts some but not others. Most today appreciate that most people are morally on somewhat equal footing and that no human is moral relative to God. I don't know what Allah teaches about it, but I have heard of passages in the Quran which suggest there are wicked bloodlines. This troubles me.

    I have to admit that a morally superior person might be created, but I don't think its true, especially not in comparison to God who would dwarf us all as the Earth dwarfs apples and oranges. Such is the concept of God that a human would only be able to be so good without destroying ourselves. We would become like an insect that grew too large and became unable to move or like a lobster that was so large that it could no longer keep itself fed. Madness and self destruction would follow or death.

    Is Allah invisible? God is never visible.

    Does Allah have a shape? God has no shape.

    Does Allah teach that all people have moral capability? The NT says that all people have access to wisdom from God, and this is called 'Conscience'. Does Allah teach that people can be guided by their conscience?

    Does Allah have a physical form? The philosophically derived concept God involves no physical form for God. Neither does the NT assign God form but instead points out that God has no form. With Jewish scriptures this is not as clear, but I think they are probably similar in this respect.

    There can be fighting and arguing about this topic. Some would have us to believe that God is our inaccurate understanding of Allah. To me that sounds like evidence that there is not agreement. I could just as easily claim the reverse, that Allah is an inaccurate caricature of God, but I don't. I don't say that, because its inflammatory and pushy; and haven't I already admitted that nobody fully understands God? Its better not to bring it up most of the time, but most people don't think of God and Allah in exactly the same way. The understanding that God is beyond comprehension goes a long way towards making it unnecessary to discuss it. Also helpful is the understanding that human minds are limited and only grasp facets of the whole truth.
     
  11. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    Honestly i would not be able to answer most of your questions, because i do not know Allah in that way :) Allah in my understanding is everywhere. But i can not say yes or no to if Allah can take a physical form in our physical world.
     
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  12. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Apparently it is the particle that gives mass to matter?
     
  13. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    In the dualistic, Abrahamic religions, no. There's God, and there's man, and the mind of man can never grok the mind of God.

    In the Eastern/Hindu traditions the whole goal is to do just that; to expand, to become God, then to continue beyond, in a total merger with the universe; an undifferentiated Unity.
     
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  14. Earthtank

    Earthtank Active Member

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    Chapter 112 of the Quran
     
  15. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    There's an awareness beyond comprehension. Intellect is a tool of third-state consciousness.
    God, as a personage, has attributes. S/he is a creation of man, and may or may not be 'known'.
    Beyond God is the attributeless Brahman -- reality/existence itself. Not 'known' in any intellectual sense, but awareness itself.
     
    #55 Valjean, Apr 7, 2021 at 2:38 PM
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021 at 2:48 PM
  16. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    Surah 112 says :
    In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.

    1. Say, “He is God, the One.

    2. God, the Absolute.

    3. He begets not, nor was He begotten.

    4. And there is none comparable to Him.”

    In what way do you mean this verse truly tell us what Allah actually is? Is it a being, an energy, light, air, solid, or fluid? The verse say God is absolute, but what does it tell about what Allah in the purset form is? is Allah in every single atom?

    Of course this is only questions to hear your understanding :) It is not an attemt on fooling you :)
     
  17. Earthtank

    Earthtank Active Member

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    Verse 4 says "And there is none comparable to Him." so in my opinion nothing we as humans can think of will be "comparable to Him." as everything you are thinking of such as anger, energy, light or anything is or can even be compared to him.

    What do you or even your teacher understand "absolute" to mean? Some other translations have used the word "eternal" instead of absolute. My suggestion would be to try and understand what the verse is meant, within its proper context in the Arabic form as many words lose their context and true meaning when translated. Not only in the Quran but just general speech as well.

    From my understanding of the Quran and as it compares to Christianity the answer here is a No.
     
    #57 Earthtank, Apr 7, 2021 at 2:51 PM
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021 at 2:59 PM
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  18. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    In this answer you gave, i agree a lot with you :)

    My teacher ask me not to think of what Allah actually is, because it is a to big question to be answered at the level of understanding i currently am on :) I have many other questions i have to realized the answer to first
     
  19. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    A hopeless attempt to describe the ineffable. It's kind of a Hindu obsession. If you've been there you might recognize the landscape being described, if not it's a hopeless kaleidoscope.
     
  20. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Many throughout the world, and throughout time, disagree.
    Huxley called it Perennial Philosophy.
     
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