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Is it possible that extremists such as ISIS or Al-Queda are correct?
- Thread starter JeremK
- Start date
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
any group that uses violence and terror would have a hard time proving they are correct
JeremK
Member
I don't think they're correct, but I have been having intrusive thoughts in which I think God supports their actions and cause.
They've been quite bothersome to me, and I've scheduled an appointment with my therapist for tomorrow to discuss them.
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
No they are not correct. There is nothing of benefit from them for anyone. Muslims aren't safe from them, Christians aren't, no one is unless you become one of them. That's called compulsion. Islam, as Muslims believe, comes from God and through Islam God teaches that compulsion into anything is prohibited.
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apologies for intruding into the DIR.
In all probability you may have some anxiety issues and thats leading to the intrusive thoughts. that isn't however to dismiss you or your argument, but that there is probably a deeper reason you feel that way and it is worth exploring. its probably a good thing you said it on RF as that might help you feel more comfortable with it and diffuse the anxiety of having thoughts we feel guilty about.
By "correct" you obviously mean that "God supports their actions and cause". So really, this isn't a question about truth but authority. Does ISIS or Al-Queida have the divine authority to do what they do?
Being honest for a moment, these people will sincerely believe that what they are doing is right. that is actually something that is hard to get our heads round because it is often so alien to our experience. there are people who believe terrorism, mass killings etc, are justified. I am not a muslim, so god isn't part of the picture (though there is still the sense that there is some authority, such as peer pressure, that expects me to say 'no'). But as an atheist, there isn't a clear "yes" or "no" answer to this. the more we look into these things, the lesser easy it is to tell who the good guy are.
From an Islamic point of view, it will depend on your interpretation of Islam. To the best of my knowledge (which is admittedly not great) it would appear that radical Islam is a political movement and its interpretation of the scripture is highly selective. it's authority from scripture isn't great. The concept of 'jihad' referred to a much broader range of actions than simply violent ones and (I think) includes something like self-mastery and seeking to be authentic in your beliefs.
The justification for 9/11 was primarily US intervention in the Middle East. There were rational political objectives behind it and it was not, as is simply charactured in the media and attack on "freedom, democracy and our way of life". This for example included US military presence in saudi-arabia and their proximity to sacred sites such as Mecca and Medina. However, behind this is the assumption that Muslims constitute a single community as a basis for a greater political union. it is this sense that the 'Ummah' constitutes a group with greivances and a right to nationhood that informs political islam as a basis for Sharia Law and a Caliphate in the Middle east. That is true of both ISIS and Al-quieda. So far as I know, that is not in Islamic scripture.
From a personal point of view however, I imagine that you feel guilty about entertaining the idea they may be right as the west (inspite of it's protestation of secuarlism) still turns its enemies into demons possessed by evil ideologies. I've had this experience with communism and had a great deal of personal struggles with it, as the de-humanised sense of "these people are absolute evil" is hard to overcome. I've reached a point where I'm willing to entertain such ideas, but I draw a line between recognising the humanity of the people who perpetrate such acts of violence and the experiences which shaped them to become like that, for accepting that those actions are 'right'. From my understanding they are two quite seperate questions. There are alot of reasons why people become attracted to this sort of thing and most of them are not as rational as they first appear, but have to do with personal problems, a deep sense of greivance and alienation from their societies and therefore difficulties and confusion over a sense of personal identity. What makes extremist ideologies stick is when they offer something positive, particuarly a noble and heroic self-image, but this is almost never compatable with violence and often cover up those problems- which means that when they do become violent, it is often a sadistic act of revenge rather than anything that is compatable with its original intentions. the psychology of violence and desire for revenge trumps what may well be human in them as they are broken people. that is, its in it's own wage, a human tragedy, but is alot harder to recognise.
I don't think god choses sides, its people that do. you may well feel very angry about alot of things and you should discuss whether this is something that is rational, or whether you have personal greivences that you feel powerless to solve. often, we aren't powerless, but our sense of right and wrong ties our hands and we can be too "nice" to people when we really should look out for ourselves. look after yourself mate.
morphesium
Active Member
Since i am not allowed to post here, made a post on the general debate section to answer you.
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DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
Peace be on you.
Wherever Muslims were given permission for a ‘defensive war’ it was given as a means to protect all religions and not just Islam.
[22:39] Surely, Allah defends those who believe. Surely, Allah loves not any one who is perfidious or ungrateful.
[22:40] Permission to fight is given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged — and Allah indeed has power to help them —
[22:41] Those who have been driven out from their homes unjustly only because they said, ‘Our Lord is Allah’ — And if Allah did not repel some men by means of others, there would surely have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft commemorated. And Allah will surely help one who helps Him. Allah is indeed Powerful, Mighty —
=====
Allah told Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh) :
[88:22] Admonish, therefore, for thou art but an admonisher;
[88:23] Thou hast no authority to compel them.
“It is never permissible, in any circumstance, to force another person to accept Islam or indeed any religion… All people are free to believe or not to believe. And so when the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) was permitted only to convey the message of Islam and nothing further – how then can the so called Muslim leaders of today go beyond this and think they have more power, authority or rights than the Prophet of Islam?”
Source:https://www.alislam.org/egazette/pr...der-calls-for-urgent-action-against-extemism/
JeremK
Member
apologies for intruding into the DIR.
In all probability you may have some anxiety issues and thats leading to the intrusive thoughts. that isn't however to dismiss you or your argument, but that there is probably a deeper reason you feel that way and it is worth exploring. its probably a good thing you said it on RF as that might help you feel more comfortable with it and diffuse the anxiety of having thoughts we feel guilty about.
By "correct" you obviously mean that "God supports their actions and cause". So really, this isn't a question about truth but authority. Does ISIS or Al-Queida have the divine authority to do what they do?
Being honest for a moment, these people will sincerely believe that what they are doing is right. that is actually something that is hard to get our heads round because it is often so alien to our experience. there are people who believe terrorism, mass killings etc, are justified. I am not a muslim, so god isn't part of the picture (though there is still the sense that there is some authority, such as peer pressure, that expects me to say 'no'). But as an atheist, there isn't a clear "yes" or "no" answer to this. the more we look into these things, the lesser easy it is to tell who the good guy are.
From an Islamic point of view, it will depend on your interpretation of Islam. To the best of my knowledge (which is admittedly not great) it would appear that radical Islam is a political movement and its interpretation of the scripture is highly selective. it's authority from scripture isn't great. The concept of 'jihad' referred to a much broader range of actions than simply violent ones and (I think) includes something like self-mastery and seeking to be authentic in your beliefs.
The justification for 9/11 was primarily US intervention in the Middle East. There were rational political objectives behind it and it was not, as is simply charactured in the media and attack on "freedom, democracy and our way of life". This for example included US military presence in saudi-arabia and their proximity to sacred sites such as Mecca and Medina. However, behind this is the assumption that Muslims constitute a single community as a basis for a greater political union. it is this sense that the 'Ummah' constitutes a group with greivances and a right to nationhood that informs political islam as a basis for Sharia Law and a Caliphate in the Middle east. That is true of both ISIS and Al-quieda. So far as I know, that is not in Islamic scripture.
From a personal point of view however, I imagine that you feel guilty about entertaining the idea they may be right as the west (inspite of it's protestation of secuarlism) still turns its enemies into demons possessed by evil ideologies. I've had this experience with communism and had a great deal of personal struggles with it, as the de-humanised sense of "these people are absolute evil" is hard to overcome. I've reached a point where I'm willing to entertain such ideas, but I draw a line between recognising the humanity of the people who perpetrate such acts of violence and the experiences which shaped them to become like that, for accepting that those actions are 'right'. From my understanding they are two quite seperate questions. There are alot of reasons why people become attracted to this sort of thing and most of them are not as rational as they first appear, but have to do with personal problems, a deep sense of greivance and alienation from their societies and therefore difficulties and confusion over a sense of personal identity. What makes extremist ideologies stick is when they offer something positive, particuarly a noble and heroic self-image, but this is almost never compatable with violence and often cover up those problems- which means that when they do become violent, it is often a sadistic act of revenge rather than anything that is compatable with its original intentions. the psychology of violence and desire for revenge trumps what may well be human in them as they are broken people. that is, its in it's own wage, a human tragedy, but is alot harder to recognise.
I don't think god choses sides, its people that do. you may well feel very angry about alot of things and you should discuss whether this is something that is rational, or whether you have personal greivences that you feel powerless to solve. often, we aren't powerless, but our sense of right and wrong ties our hands and we can be too "nice" to people when we really should look out for ourselves. look after yourself mate.
These are some very good points; however, some of ISIS' actions seem practically unjustifiable to me, even if the people responsible do legitimately believe they are good people. Beheading hostages, raping and torturing women (as well as lying about doing so in some cases), and throwing homosexuals off of roofs simply for being themselves are among these actions.
I do entirely agree that the west exaggerates its enemies' evilness and that the war between it and terrorists is somewhat morally gray, but I simply cannot see how ISIS could be more "in the right" than the west.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
They are nothing more than a group of sociopathic psychopaths that have been indoctrinated with propaganda and half-truths. Don't let your mind go there. Just remember, they are destroying ancient artifacts and monuments dear to the history of the human race. This should show you that they are nothing but evil.
JeremK
Member
Of all of the posts on this thread so far, this one has stuck out to me the most. That's probably because it's a thorough explanation from a man of the Muslim faith, but it really stuck out to me.
The problem is that members of ISIS have a very different definition of good to you and I. it takes alot to get our heads round it and I admit, even I don't fully understand it. But, as good as I can know, I willing to accept they are sincere in their beliefs.
Servant_of_the_One1
Well-Known Member
Lolll
How can they be correct when they leave Islam and become apostates?
Isis , alqeada are apostate disbelievers.
I believe that they are renegades, people who left islam.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
Servant_of_the_One1
Well-Known Member
JeremK
Member
Had you read the post you would have had the correct context and known that I've been having intrusive thoughts about this due to my anxiety disorder.
And I'm an Agnostic Unitarian Universalist. No need to be so rude.
Servant_of_the_One1
Well-Known Member
Servant_of_the_One1
Well-Known Member
Some could say the same about superpowers why they are the world police.
I believe God gives power to anyone. So the isis power is just temporary. I never saw alqeada and such groups as good. Their works is evil. Beheading and suicidebombs? Really? That can never have the support of Creator!
I believe God gives power to anyone. So the isis power is just temporary. I never saw alqeada and such groups as good. Their works is evil. Beheading and suicidebombs? Really? That can never have the support of Creator!