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Featured Is it Paul's confirmation that he used to lie?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by paarsurrey, Jun 30, 2019.

  1. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Is it Paul's confirmation that he lied? Right, please?

    Romans Chapter 3
    4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge." [1]
    5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)
    6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?
    7 Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?"
    8 Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.
    Bible Gateway Romans 3 :: NIV
    Romans Chapter 3
    4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
    5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
    6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
    7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
    8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
    Bible Gateway passage: Romans 3 - King James Version
    Romans Chapter 3
    [4] But God is true; and every man a liar, as it is written, That thou mayest be justified in thy words, and mayest overcome when thou art judged.
    [5] But if our injustice commend the justice of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust, who executeth wrath?
    [6] (I speak according to man.) God forbid: otherwise how shall God judge this world? [7] For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie, unto his glory, why am I also yet judged as a sinner? [8] And not rather (as we are slandered, and as some affirm that we say) let us do evil, that there may come good? whose damnation is just.
    Douay-Rheims Bible, Romans Chapter 3
    Romans Chapter 3
    4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
    5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
    6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
    7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
    8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
    ROMANS CHAPTER 3 KJV

    Regards
     
  2. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Paul called himself later in life 'chief among sinners'
    and why not. He was an example of God's patience and mercy

    Yes he probably lied in some form or other as all people break the commandments in some form or other.
     
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  3. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    Out of context
     
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  4. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    OK, so you also gave up to answer me on the thread, Did people see Jesus die on the cross?
    Try to help your brother, he dont know what to say anymore.
    I will obciously later come to this thread again to show you what Pauls words are.
    But first, go to my question you so vehemently attempted to answer pal.
     
  5. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Paul scrupulously tried to keep the law but its like trying to lift yourself up to heaven to go in orbit by your bootstraps. You can expend lots of effort but it ain't gunna happen.

    As prelude to the suffering servant passage of Isaiah 53 which describes God's servant rejected, suffering for sins, dying for sins and overcoming death there is a rhetorical play in Isiah 51 where God challenges 'ups who long for righteousness" to "look to Abraham" and every 2nd grader in Sunday school knows Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.
     
  6. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "Paul called himself later in life 'chief among sinners' "

    So, is it Paul's double or rather redouble confirmation of being sinner and persecutor of Jesus and his truthful followers to the extent that he faked a vision to become an Apostle and imported Pagan-Christ concept to mutilate the truthful religion of Jesus?
    Right, please?

    Regards
    ____________
    How Was Paul The Chief Of Sinners (1Tim 1:15)?
     
    #6 paarsurrey, Jul 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  7. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    What makes you think he 'faked' a vision

    That makes no sense. He was hunting down Christians to imprison them and get them killed and then because of the vision 'flipped' sides. Faking makes no sense in that context.

    I think Paul got it exactly right.
     
  8. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "a vision"

    Did Jesus see a vision himself?
    Did Moses see a vision himself?
    Did any truthful prophet/messenger of G-d (before Jesus) see any vision?
    If yes, then quote from them. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  9. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The Servant's song is about Israel not Jesus. Shame on Christians for hijacking the writings of Isaiah.
     
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  10. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    I see it is about all Gods Messengers. Thus applicable to Abraham, Moses, Jesus the Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Just to name a few.

    Regards Tony
     
  11. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    King James Bible
    But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

    Isaiah 41:8
     
  12. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    By that you would have to mean the Apostles and Jesus because that's how they interpreted it.

    Christians, of course, would be lead to interpret the Old Testament as the apostles and Jesus did. Would they not?

    Isaiah 53 alone is quoted 7 times and applied to Jesus
    Matthew 8:14-17; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; 1 Peter 2:19-25; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21.

    Isaiah 49:6 is applied to the Church in the book of Acts by Peter

    Romans 11:34 The mind of the LORD (Isaiah 40:13)

    Romans 14:11 Every knee shall bow (Isaiah 45:23)

    Romans 15:12 Hope for Gentiles (Isaiah 42:4)

    Romans 15:21 They shall understand (Isaiah 52:15)
     
    #12 whirlingmerc, Jul 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
  13. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    I see that the Covernant has been Fulfilled. All nations and all Faiths now flow up the Mountain of the Lord, Mt Carmel.

    The Law goes out from Zion, One God One people.

    Regards Tony
     
  14. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    It is hardly merely a modern Christian thing to see Jesus in the servant songs.
    Jesus saw himself there and the apostles saw Jesus there after Pentecost.
     
  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Isaiah 53, which is the fourth of four renowned Servant Songs, is umbilically connected to its preceding chapters. The “servant” in each of the three previous Servant Songs is plainly and repeatedly identified as the nation of Israel.

    Isaiah 41:8-9

    But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.”



    Isaiah 44:1

    But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!

    Isaiah 44:21

    Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

    Isaiah 45:4

    For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.

    Isaiah 48:20

    Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!”

    Isaiah 49:3

    And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
     
  16. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    And many have some serious problems with that since in many way
    is says

    He (singular) was rejected/suffered/died for Us (plural)

    A simple reading of the texts would indicate something more is going on that Israel died for Israel.
     
  17. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    How else do you think Baha'u'llah (Glory of God) got banished to Isreal from the east through the Bab (Gate). How else is there another world Faith with its world centre on Mt Carmel, if it was not via that Covernant.

    All the Suffering Servants find their consummation in the Message of Baha'u'llah, the 'Father'.

    People of all Faiths and of all Nations have now become one people on one planet, they have beaten their swords into plowshares and now flow to Israel each year. All these people see One God, the God of all Names and Faiths.

    The Arc of the Covernant is fulfilled.

    Regards Tony
     
  18. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    I see all Gods Messengers are One. What is applicable to One Name from God, is also applicable to all the Names from God.

    It is in understanding that it is the 'Christ' that is all the Names.

    Regards Tony
     
  19. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    That would not be a traditional Jewish or Christian view

    But... most would say all God's true messengers are in agreement...
    question is which ones are they
     
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  20. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    That is the questions we must ask ourselves.

    Regards Tony
     
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