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Is it okay to use sophistry?

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
Bad ideas are often sold using good marketing. The entire Bush administration was sold on catchy slogans and clever renamings. Think "swift boat veterans for truth" or "enemy combatants". The Project for the New American Century had an entire article on selecting terminology.

The practice of manipulating language and rhetoric rather than logic to get what you want is known as sophistry. Politics and the English Language describes many sophist techniques. Neuro-linguistic programming is a small-scale application of sophistry. Pick-up and con artists depend on it as the core of their craft.

It's obvious that sophistry has negatives. In the Greek times, the Sophists (the group from which the word comes) were accused of pursuing power rather than truth or justice.

My concern, however, is that truth and justice cannot exist without power. There is a perception among intellectuals that good ideas will be enacted as policy simply because of their virtue as good ideas, but time and time again, these ideas fall to bad ideas that are better advertised. Often when good ideas are enacted, it is only after the opposing bad ideas have catastrophically failed, costing millions of lives and billions of dollars.

The reason seems to be that the average population doesn't recognize the difference between good and bad ideas. Instead, swayed by rhetoric, they vote for the one with the slickest slogans and best buzzwords.

It seems to me that there is nothing inherently wrong with sophistry. Rhetoric is not in opposition to truth or justice, it is ambivalent to it. Rather than focusing on communicating their ideas clearly, perhaps people with good ideas should try to advertise them better, using wordplay, slogans, buzzwords: the tools that an honest intellectual often scorns.

It needs not be dishonest. A car salesman selling a lemon may lie about the engine, but a car salesman selling a good car can honestly say that the engine is good. Rhetoric is a common cover for poor logic, but rhetoric can cover good logic just as easily.

My question is, is there any moral reason why intelligent people can't use rhetoric to better advertise good ideas?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
I dunno, sophistry generally conotes BAD rhetoric....

But if you just mean rhetoric, there's no way to make a point without it. Some are more elegant than others, that's all.
 

Mox

Dr Green Fingers
Sophistry is the use of poorly constructed illogical arguments in order to confuse and deceive.

It is a tactic often used in debate and is quite pathetic.

So if you want to look pathetic then use sophistry.
 

3.14

Well-Known Member
its oppossite to occam's razor but i think i know what your getting at



though i wonder what do you feel about the quote
Every good idee has opposition, every bad idee has fancy language
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
One can use bad rhetoric to support a good idea.

For example, the Republicans are currently opposing spending and supporting tax cuts as a way out of our current economic dilemma. They are calling those who support more spending socialists. This is sophism for a bad idea (those supporting spending aren't socialists, and it should be clear that Bush's tax cuts were what got us here in the first place).

In opposition, Democrats are citing complex economic concepts which the public doesn't understand. Instead, they could use sophism and call their opposition fascists. The term isn't polite, but the average person would get the desired revulsion.

(I'd like to disclaim that I'm not always so partisan, but currently the good ideas in US politics are all sitting squarely on the Democratic side).
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
I just see that as stooping to their level. I'd rather take the high road, myself.
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
I just see that as stooping to their level. I'd rather take the high road, myself.

The high road is nice, but it isn't effective. In a way, taking the high road makes one complicit in allowing the wrong side of things to take power and do great damage.

The high road is certainly preferable, but sometimes it's necessary to "take of the gloves" in the defense of what is right, even if it isn't pretty.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Manipulation will always be far more effective than appeal to reason when attempting to sway a population. Even on an individual level, the average person doesn't make a fraction of their personal decisions based on reason or how good an idea is, but rather on their emotional state. Why would the mechanism for appealing to masses be any different?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
The high road is nice, but it isn't effective. In a way, taking the high road makes one complicit in allowing the wrong side of things to take power and do great damage.
Sad but true.

The high road is certainly preferable, but sometimes it's necessary to "take of the gloves" in the defense of what is right, even if it isn't pretty.
Still, that doesn't mean you have to resort to falsehood and ad hom. You can be downright nasty when truth is on your side, too. I guess it's a question of whether the ends jusitfy the means. Personally, I think such tactics cast doubt on the goals.
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
I guess it's a question of whether the ends jusitfy the means. Personally, I think such tactics cast doubt on the goals.

This is what concerns me. In general, I don't think that the end justifies the means. But maybe politics is an exception?
 
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