• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is it okay to kill this?

dust1n

Zindīq
People are so concerned about the mother's body and her rights to it (which in my opinion, she limited when she took part in voluntary actions that include the possibility of pregnancy which would then involve the rights of another person).

Why aren't these same people as concerned about a baby's body that is scalded, ripped apart, or stabbed - with NO anesthesia?

MY GOSH - where's the compassion and common sense???

Look at the bright side.. the criminalization of abortion does wonders for the prison and clothes hanger industries!
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
I mean, if you're talking about humanity being determined by the rights that the law imparts - let's kill anyone who medically can't drive. I mean, their rights are limited, right?
No, they are talking about the legalities surrounding abortion.
Please try to pay attention.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Look at the bright side.. the criminalization of abortion does wonders for the prison and clothes hanger industries!
Criminalizing abortion does not decrease the number of abortions.
It only decreases the number of abortions you know about.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I am going to guess it is for the exact same reason right to lifers are no where to be found after the child is born...

Pre-birth - WE'RE BEHIND YOU100%!!
Pre-school - **** YOU! YOU"RE ON YOUR OWN!


Hmmm, I know a lot of Christian families who have adopted or are foster parents. A LOT.

Besides that, quit diverting. It boils down to people taking responsibility for their actions, or taking the easy way out by taking another person's life.

And I am not, for the record, talking about truly necessary abortions - which do exist, though they are rare. I would never critisize a woman who needed an abortion to save her own life, or who aborted a baby with severe deformities that were incompatible with life (though I would hope that she could bring herself to deliver it naturally or at least choose some sort of humane abortion procedure so that the baby was spared the pain of being ripped apart). And though I don't agree with abortions because of rape, I wouldn't vote against that option because it's such a rarity. So why cloud the issue?
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Hmmm, I know a lot of Christian families who have adopted or are foster parents. A LOT.
I know a lot of non-Christians families who adopt and or are foster parents.
So what.

Besides that, quit diverting.
You first.

It boils down to people taking responsibility for their actions, or taking the easy way out by taking another person's life.
Seems to me they are taking responsibility for their actions.
They are getting an abortion.

And I am not, for the record, talking about truly necessary abortions - which do exist, though they are rare. I would never critisize a woman who needed an abortion to save her own life, or who aborted a baby with severe deformities that were incompatible with life (though I would hope that she could bring herself to deliver it naturally or at least choose some sort of humane abortion procedure so that the baby was spared the pain of being ripped apart). And though I don't agree with abortions because of rape, I wouldn't vote against that option because it's such a rarity.
Look at that.
We actually agree on something concerning abortion...

So why cloud the issue?
Cloud the issue?

You do know that this is not a black and white only issue, right?
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Honestly, I don't know if I could have anything to do with an abortion at any stage of development. I'll support a woman's right to choose, but for myself the whole idea makes me profoundly uncomfortable. If I were a doctor or nurse I just don't think I could do it.

My Aunt Nancy, who was a midwife, performed full-term abortions in the most horrifying manner when she had to do it to save women's lives. But I think she was tougher than I am.

Yes sir I believe she was..

(((HUGS)))

Love

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
People are so concerned about the mother's body and her rights to it (which in my opinion, she limited when she took part in voluntary actions that include the possibility of pregnancy which would then involve the rights of another person).

Why aren't these same people as concerned about a baby's body that is scalded, ripped apart, or stabbed - with NO anesthesia?

MY GOSH - where's the compassion and common sense???

O.K so are you one of those people that thinks its O.K if she was raped?

And besides that..the "scalded and stabbed and ripped apart" is quite dramatic..That is not what happens with say ...close to 100% of abortions..

How about if the mother is 4 weeks or 5 weeks pregnant?
And there isnt even a "surgical procedure"..
Is that O.K?

Love

Dallas
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
And besides that..the "scalded and stabbed and ripped apart" is quite dramatic..
Yes, she uses several appeal to emotion lines in her posts.
I wonder why she feels her argument is to weak to stand without them.

I do not think they are, but apparently she does.
Otherwise, why all the dramatic appeal to emotion lines.?
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
Yes, she uses several appeal to emotion lines in her posts.
I wonder why she feels her argument is to weak to stand without them.

I do not think they are, but apparently she does.
Otherwise, why all the dramatic appeal to emotion lines.?
Her appeal, is as transparent as your eagerness to try and slip in "key" debate terms, as to shout aloud, Mestemia knows debate terminology... Rather boring, your responses are.

Whatever helps you sleep at night though...
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Her appeal, is as transparent as your eagerness to try and slip in "key" debate terms, as to shout aloud, Mestemia knows debate terminology... Rather boring, your responses are.

Whatever helps you sleep at night though...
I see your hypocrisy is working a bit of overtime.
 

Smoke

Done here.
It boils down to people taking responsibility for their actions
Exactly. It's about people who believe they have the right to judge other people and make decisions for those people based on some imagined position of moral superiority.

We all live with the consequences of our actions, including women who have abortions. Abortion is not some kind of get-out-of-karma-free card. It's not something many women do lightly or joyfully. I don't understand how anybody could fail to realize that. And frankly, there are probably some times when abortion is the best thing in the circumstances. I don't understand how anybody can claim the right to make such a difficult and important decision on somebody else's behalf. Where's the compassion and common sense? Where's the humility?

We all make difficult decisions, decisions that others might not understand or sympathize with. Every single one of us. It's good that we don't always have self-appointed judges prepared to force us to "take responsibility for our actions."
 

Amill

Apikoros
Personally I think equalling abortion to murder in our legal system would just be a mess. I mean would we then start investigating miscarriages to make sure the mother wasn't negligent? The majority of eggs that become fertilized die within the first few weeks, should we make woman visit the doctor weekly to try and prevent these deaths?

Yes, but at the end of the prenancy - a rat is still a rat. Are you honestly saying you see no difference between a rat and a human? What about termites - they're alive? Is their life just as sacred as that of a human? What about fire ants? Why can we kill them but we can't go kill the neighbor's kid who just broke our windshield with his baseball?

Someone most certainly could if they wanted, they'd just have to pay the consequences that come with living in a society where a large number of people may disagree with their actions or their justifications of their actions. Doesn't make any persons views and opinions more right or wrong, just different.

Everyone relates to things differently, even if its not noticeable at times. I mean look at how many of us view the fetuses at different stages in a pregnancy. Would we feel worse about a pregnancy lost in week 1 or week 30? Its not really something anybody can control, I myself would feel worse about the death of a born tiger than I would a fetus a few weeks old. Not all of us attach emotions to things based on their genetic makeups or "soul".
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
I don't understand what all of the fuss is about. It's not like they're in short supply or hard to make.

True, and we are very overpopulated. However atleast with me, I'm not so much bothered about abortion itself, but at what stage during the pregnany that the child is terminated. For instance, if a Woman got an abortion after like 2 weeks of conception I'd have no problem with it. Finding the right, or rather, the most "ideal" limit to when a Woman should no longer be allowed to terminate the child is the hard part for me. I honeslty need to study the pregnancy process further but from I know of so far, 6 weeks seems to sound about right to me.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Oh boy, I knew that the minute I said that bad word "responsibility" some people would get up in arms.

It's about people who believe they have the right to judge other people and make decisions for those people based on some imagined position of moral superiority.

You are totally missing my point. Someone has to stand up for the most innocent and most defenseless members of our society. In this case, it's the unborn. Their mothers and fathers are the ones who made choices that have consequences. In this case, the consequence is another human life. Doesn't all human life have dignity?

Using your logic, how could we even have a legal system? How could anyone ever even be convicted of a crime? How could YOUR rights be protected?

We all live with the consequences of our actions, including women who have abortions.

Well, I know at least one person who doesn't "live with the consequences" of irresponsible sex, and that's the aborted child.

And living with the consequences of our actions and TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR our actions are two entirely different things. You should know that.

An overweight person may live every day with the consequences of overeating - high blood pressure, diabetes, low self esteem, etc. He can also make every excuse in the book for his weight - he can even play the perpetual victim and blame other people for his weight. But until he takes responsibility for his weight, he will never lose it.

See the difference?

Abortion is not some kind of get-out-of-karma-free card. It's not something many women do lightly or joyfully.

I never said it was. Not sure where you're getting this. But that doesn't matter. Lots of trespasses against the rights of another person aren't particularly easy or done lightly or joyfully. Take, for example, the woman in Houston who drowned her five kids in the bathtub. Clearly she was a mental case. Clearly she was a tortured, pathetic soul. It couldn't have been easy for her to murder her children one by one - and she is still obviously a broken, guilt tortured woman. My heart actually does go out to her - and I feel that her husband should have recognized how serious her issues were and done much more to protect her and their children. But the fact remains - she murdered her children.

Many women have multiple abortions. Somewhere along the way, you'd think they could put two and two together and make some better choices BEFORE getting pregnant and leaving a trail of body parts behind them.

And frankly, there are probably some times when abortion is the best thing in the circumstances.

I agree. I think where we disagree is on the ratio of times when it's best. I would not vote against a law that simply gave abortion rights to women who have been raped, or are the victims of incest, or whose lives are in true danger, or whose child is severely handicapped - even though personally I would not choose abortion in the case of rape or physical deformity.

I am opposed to a physically healthy woman having an abortion because the pregnancy or a child would be an inconvenience.

I don't understand how anybody can claim the right to make such a difficult and important decision on somebody else's behalf. Where's the compassion and common sense?

My compassion is for the unborn child. My common sense tells me that an embryo with a beating heart, a brain, and fingers and toes - who wiggles and sucks it's thumb, is a HUMAN BABY.

We all make difficult decisions, decisions that others might not understand or sympathize with. Every single one of us. It's good that we don't always have self-appointed judges prepared to force us to "take responsibility for our actions."

Well, actually we do. When you're in college and you blow off studying in exchange for partying, and your professor gives you a failing grade - well, she's forcing you to take responsibility for your actions.

When you're late for work, and you make the decision to scoot through that light when it just turned red, and you get a ticket - that cop is forcing you to take responsibility for your actions.

When a guy has simply had all he can take from his cheating wife, and finally in a burst of anger, he slaps her across the face, and then she files assault charges against him - well, he can protest all he wants, and he can prove to many people that his actions are justified, but he will still be judged by a legal system, regardless of the sympathy that others may feel for him.

See, Smoke, whether you agree or not, many people (myself included) sincerely believe that human life is sacred and starts at conception. The fact that some other people don't agree with us doesn't change our belief - and it doesn't change the fact that thousands and thousands of these unborn babies, or fetuses if it makes you feel better, are aborted every year.

It's not our point or our intention to JUDGE the emotional state of the mother. Frankly, it's immaterial.

For example, my oldest daughter got pregnant at age 19. She and I both were emotionally distraught. She was an honor student and was a sophomore in college. This could ruin her life! It was not what either of us had planned for this bright, intelligent young woman who "had" such potential. She wasn't even still with the father when she found out she was pregnant - and he was nothing more than an irresponsible 18 year old who wasn't even in college. All he did was play in a garage band and work in a coffee shop! I cried for four straight days.

Abortion rights proponents wouldn't see a problem with her aborting the baby and going forward with her life plans (to become an attorney). But thank God she didn't choose abortion. She kept that baby, even though up till the moment she held her she considered giving her up for adoption. She decided to keep the baby though, and now we have our beautiful Maggie in our lives.

My daughter never did finish her degree. But she did meet a fantastic guy who was attracted to her initially BECAUSE he knew her story and respected her decision not to abort her baby. Their friendship started when she was about 6 months pregnant. They were nothing more than friends but after she had the baby, Josh fell in love with both of them, and they both fell in love with him.

Now they have two more children between them, and have adopted a baby from Korea. And I'm so glad that HIS single mother didn't have an abortion either!


Her first pregnancy was a mistake. It was the result of irresponsible actions. But she took ownership of her actions and she made the harder choice - the choice that required self sacrifice and maturity.

Doing the right thing isn't usually the easiest route to take - at least not short term. But in the long haul, the rewards are worth it.




People who are opposed to abortion-for-convenience are concerned with protecting the human rights of the baby - the one person in the equation who is completely innocent, and completely defenseless.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
There is nothing responsible about bringing children into the world when you lack the maturity and/or financial stability to care for and raise them properly, nor is their anything responsible about overpopulating the world and depleting its resources.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
True, and we are very overpopulated. However atleast with me, I'm not so much bothered about abortion itself, but at what stage during the pregnany that the child is terminated. For instance, if a Woman got an abortion after like 2 weeks of conception I'd have no problem with it. Finding the right, or rather, the most "ideal" limit to when a Woman should no longer be allowed to terminate the child is the hard part for me. I honeslty need to study the pregnancy process further but from I know of so far, 6 weeks seems to sound about right to me.

I support abortion all the way up to the third trimester...

...of highschool.
 
Top