Is it even possible to convince a person convinced of 'truth' that it's only their belief?

[Vinayaka]

Has anyone here ever had any success at demonstrating that a belief isn't a fact? Did anyone ever change that false idea because of what you said to them?

 

[LuisDantas]

I once convinced a member of Jodo Shinshu that rebirth, not reincarnation, was a part of the doctrine of his church.

Not sure if that counts.

 

[Vinayaka]

I once convinced a member of Jodo Shinshu that rebirth, not reincarnation, was a part of the doctrine of his church.

Not sure if that counts.

Thanks Luis.

 

[sun rise]

A strongly held belief? Or an all-embracing belief or disbelief in God. No. Never. I once had a debate with a literalist Christian who finally said that God had created the Earth just as the Bible says but then made it appear as if science was true as a test of faith.

But when it's not a matter of a fundamental belief but an aspect of a belief or perhaps a mistake in reading scripture, then, yes, once or twice the same as @LuisDantas did.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

Let me attempt so now. Perhaps the strongest of beliefs are the only real essence of reality. Decartes said 'I think therefore I am' Thought induces beliefs. Those giving no thought to what or who they are, have no real beliefs only motives for a third party approval. The whole concept of what we consider facts stem from our strong belief they are real. Money, science, politics, form or at most are made possible by our strong beliefs in them. The sky is blue to most is determined not based on understanding the elements that make the sky to a healthy eye appear blue but rather based on mutually accepting that this is so. Suppose I enter someone else body and see the sky green. However to that person it is in fact blue seen in his perspective. Truth itself is the most remarkable of paradoxes because it relies heavily on oneness and mutuality in belief. Otherwise truth may even fail lost to ignorance. I have come to realize reality in the end is how we believe it to be. Choice is the battery.

 

[Baladas]

I've helped lead people to Christianity in the past, and I have helped to prod people to investigate their assumptions about their beliefs since.
I can't say whether or not my words have been convincing enough on their own. I think it's a matter of someone being at a point where they are already receptive to changing their ideas. Through conversation, more ideas are brought to the table that may or may not lead one or both people to a change in thinking of some kind. People have convinced me of things, but it was because I was ready to be convinced. I was ready to investigate my hopes, fears and assumptions and I came to my own conclusions.

 

[stvdv]

I was in a Baptist Church for 4 years claiming "Jesus is the only way" and "Jesus allegedly having said: I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life", ergo "Jesus is the only Truth"

Four years I tried to convince them that this is "their truth, their belief", showing them respect. They insisted that it is a fact. Proof was "Bible says so". You ever tried to debate that?

4000 members in the Church. I was NOT able to convince ONE. I asked the pastor who said "All 4000 believe this way". He is a very good brain washer.
[To become a member you MUST proclaim before the congregation "Jesus is the only way, this is the only truth". Thus I understood how brainwashing was done]

You could have made a poll on this: Is there ONE Christian on RF who has realized himself that he was wrong in saying "Jesus is the only Truth = this is a fact" AND who changed?

And for that matter, is there any Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Atheist, Humanist .... Human who believes His way is not the only way and other ways are equally good?

[My Master brainwashed us with "All religions(atheist, humanism not excluded) have Love at its core, and can lead you towards the goal". Such a guru helps to kill the above arrogance]

 

[Jedster]

Has anyone here ever had any success at demonstrating that a belief isn't a fact? Did anyone ever change that false idea because of what you said to them?

When I was follower of a Guru who was believed to be THE supreme Being incarnate, I brought many people to his 'lotus feet'.
Of course , making such a claim brought lots of challenges from different believers.
Two examples.

On different occasions, I was discussing/arguing with a Born again Christian and a Krishna devotee(Iskon). They both quoted their scriptures to prove their points.
So, I said that words are fine, but direct experience overrides & that my Guru could give them a direct experience of Truth/god & invited them to come and see him.

The Christian, one seeing the Guru looked astonished, and said "That's the Christ, I have been looking for him".
The Krishna devotee said something similar, but mentioned Krishna.

Hmm.. on reflection, I changed their false idea to a 'better' false idea.

 

[atanu]

Has anyone here ever had any success at demonstrating that a belief isn't a fact? Did anyone ever change that false idea because of what you said to them?

Hinduism and Buddhism teach that truths can be of different levels. Jainism teaches anekavAda (many partial views). Scientific theories are also defined as falsifiable. So, I will tend to think that comprehending the idea that we have only the representational facts should not be difficult. Yet, probably, it is difficult to acknowledge that we have beliefs only.

 

[`mud]

Turn the OP around a little, what was said to you about changing your mind ?
Is this thread about conversion in any way ? Does anyone's mind been changed here ?
If so...what was said to influence your thinking ? Anyone here going to answer the question ?

 

[`mud]

I myself have said much about the Stuff around us, and to the effect that this Stuff has had on us in breathing and tasting it. We become other Stuff and we will be breathed in and tasted over and over again. Does anyone think about that ? Do most think they will go to heaven when they die ? OK to that but what happens to the rest of you down here on Earth ? That part that becomes Stuff on this Earth. What part of this Stuff becomes a part of your Stuff. It becomes other Stuff down here doesn't it ?
Now....I said it....you heard it...did it effect your thinking...I think not !
NuffStuff

 

[Windwalker]

Has anyone here ever had any success at demonstrating that a belief isn't a fact? Did anyone ever change that false idea because of what you said to them?

I would say yes. Not that that happened on the spot, but after some time eventually they moved beyond their blindspot and saw it. However, that is true of any of us based on the way we take how we think about things as reflecting reality because it has a functional truth for us. What really makes the difference is when we ourselves are no longer finding how we believe to be working for us. Once that happens, then we become willing to entertain other positions and possibilities, and then if what the other says offers something useful for us, then we believe it.

I have always balked at the idea that says a good argument, a "presentation of the facts", convinced them to change their minds. That doesn't happen if someone isn't first receptive to other possibilities. As the saying goes, "A man convinced against his will, remains of same opinion still". The real question, is what helps someone to be open? It's not a "convincing argument", but rather a choice of the will. And that choice of the will, has to do with fulfilling a need far deeper than a rational one.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Buddha, Sankara and Bertrand Russell changed my views. Yes, it takes time, sometimes years.

Decartes said 'I think therefore I am' Thought induces beliefs.

That is not true. Descartes never existed. That was an illusion created by perturbations of the field forces.

And for that matter, is there any Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Atheist, Humanist .. Human who believes His way is not the only way and other ways are equally good?

Don't club Hindus there. We believe there are many ways. We respect ways of other Hindus and of some other people too. You are not unaware of what goes on in Hinduism DIR.

 

[Windwalker]

That is not true. Descartes never existed. That was an illusion created by perturbations of the field forces.

Descartes was once seen in a restaurant, and at the end of his meal the waiter asked, "Will you be having a dessert tonight, Mr. Descartes?" He responded, "I think not", and vanished.

 

[`mud]

hey Aupmanyav,
Really !

 

[Nakosis]

Has anyone here ever had any success at demonstrating that a belief isn't a fact? Did anyone ever change that false idea because of what you said to them?

Rarely, and it's never acknowledged. I usually see months or years later them trying to convince someone else of the idea as if it were their own.

You put an idea out there and even though they initially reject it, it bounces around in their subconscious for a while slowly gathering steam until it integrates itself into their thinking.

Enough reinforcement of an idea can bypass their conscious objection and integrate itself to their subconscious thinking to the point where an idea can start to seem reasonable to their conscious thought.

Unfortunately this seems to work with false ideas as easily as true ones.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Descartes was once seen in a restaurant, and at the end of his meal the waiter asked, "Will you be having a dessert tonight, Mr. Descartes?" He responded, "I think not", and vanished.

Did he pay his bill? Or vanished just like that.

 

[Vinayaka]

Rarely, and it's never acknowledged. I usually see months or years later them trying to convince someone else of the idea as if it were their own.

You put an idea out there and even though they initially reject it, it bounces around in their subconscious for a while slowly gathering steam until it integrates itself into their thinking.

Enough reinforcement of an idea can bypass their conscious objection and integrate itself to their subconscious thinking to the point where an idea can start to seem reasonable to their conscious thought.

Unfortunately this seems to work with false ideas as easily as true ones.

When my dentist changed because of experience and love for his son, (son was gay, Dad was fundamentalist, Dad mellowed) in the ensuing conversation we had, at one point he looked at me funny, and said, "Yeah, I know, you're thinking. "I could have told you that," but 5 years ago I would never have believed you."

So mostly we change out views from experience, not from other peoples words. That experience can also just be a keen observation.

Also reminds me of 'Field of Dreams' where the doubting brother in law finally sees.

 

[Aupmanyav]

hey Aupmanyav,
Really !

Yeah, really, Mud. I do not exist nor you do. We are illusions. I thought you knew!

 

[Desert Snake]

They have to come up with the correct argument , first.
How can someone convince me of my belief being wrong, when they don't even know the arguments against it?