Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

[ChristineES]

Is obtaining knowledge a good thing or a bad thing?

Supposing it is a good thing, as it seems implicit in your post, is disobeying an order that tries to prevent the acquistion of knowledge a good thing or a bad thing?

Ciao

- viole

I am not sure what you are trying to get me to say. I've already said what I believe in that regard. Adam and Eve were a symbolic story, in my view, and it was about disobedience and not withholding knowledge. No one is going PAST Adam & Eve. According to my faith, FAITH is the most important thing, it is mentioned over and over again in my scriptures both in the Tanakh and in the Christian scriptures. But having faith doesn't include staying ignorant, there is nothing in the scriptures that says that. King Solomon was called the most wise man in the Bible because he had faith: He was asked if he would rather have riches or wisdom and he chose wisdom. I believe that God wants me to have faith and he wants be to have knowledge and He wants me to gain wisdom. No one could go through life without learning anything.

 

[viole]

I am not sure what you are trying to get me to say. I've already said what I believe in that regard. Adam and Eve were a symbolic story, in my view, and it was about disobedience and not withholding knowledge. No one is going PAST Adam & Eve. According to my faith, FAITH is the most important thing, it is mentioned over and over again in my scriptures both in the Tanakh and in the Christian scriptures. But having faith doesn't include staying ignorant, there is nothing in the scriptures that says that. King Solomon was called the most wise man in the Bible because he had faith: He was asked if he would rather have riches or wisdom and he chose wisdom. I believe that God wants me to have faith and he wants be to have knowledge and He wants me to gain wisdom. No one could go through life without learning anything.

I just asked a simple question. I am interested to read what you think, not what the Bible says.

If something is good, is it bad to resist orders that try to prevent it? Or, antisimmetrically, if something is bad, is it good to resist orders that try to enforce it?

And does your answer depends on who gives the orders?

Ciao

- viole

 

[ChristineES]

I just asked a simple question. I am interested to read what you think, not what the Bible says.

If something is good, is it bad to resist orders that try to prevent it? Or, antisimmetrically, if something is bad, is it good to resist orders that try to enforce it?

And does your answer depends on who gives the orders?

Ciao

- viole

I SAID what I think. I don't believe that gaining knowledge is a sin. That is my OWN thought and I keep saying it over and over.

 

[viole]

I SAID what I think. I don't believe that gaining knowledge is a sin. That is my OWN thought and I keep saying it over and over.

Ok, let me rephrase then.

Is it a sin to disobey an order against something that it is not a sin?

Ciao

- viole

 

[ChristineES]

Ok, let me rephrase then.

Is it a sin to disobey an order against something that it is not a sin?

Ciao

- viole

I am trying to understand what you are asking. One of my "orders", being a follower of Yeshua, is to love my neighbor as myself. If I don't love my neighbor as myself, then I am disobeying God and I need to repent.
If I work for a company, and they ask me to do the job they hired me to do and I refuse to do it, I will lose my job.
It's very simple, which is why my answers are so simplistic in this question.

And if I get this "command" in my head, and it's doing something such as killing or maiming, then I know it's not from God since it goes against what I've learned.

*Note: My neighbors are everyone and I mean EVERYONE.

 

[viole]

I am trying to understand what you are asking. One of my "orders", being a follower of Yeshua, is to love my neighbor as myself. If I don't love my neighbor as myself, then I am disobeying God and I need to repent.
If I work for a company, and they ask me to do the job they hired me to do and I refuse to do it, I will lose my job.
It's very simple, which is why my answers are so simplistic in this question.

And if I get this "command" in my head, and it's doing something such as killing or maiming, then I know it's not from God since it goes against what I've learned.

*Note: My neighbors are everyone and I mean EVERYONE.

You are deflecting. It could be that not loving the others like yourself would be a sin. In that case, it would be a sin not to obey. And, incidentally, I hope you love yourself a lot, and masochists and people who hate themselves do not take that order literally

My question is more general, and not related to any sin in particular.

My question is, again, is that a sin to disobey an order that tries to prevent something that is not a sin?

Possible answers:

1) no
2) yes, always
3) yes, but only if God issued that order

Ciao

- viole

 

[ChristineES]

You are deflecting. It could be that not loving the others like yourself would be a sin. In that case, it would be a sin not to obey. And, incidentally, I hope you love yourself a lot, and masochists do not take that order literally

My question is more general, and not related to any sin in particular.

My question is, again, is that a sin to disobey an order that tries to prevent something that is not a sin?

Possible answers:

1) no
2) yes, always
3) yes, but only if God orders it

Ciao

- viole

I truly can't answer your question, because it is too vague: It depends, and that is the number 4 on your list, which I add. People stop people from doing things all the time, and those things they are doing are not sins. Such as speaking loudly in a library. If someone was speaking too loudly, I would ask the librarian to tell them to be quiet or maybe I'd ask them to please keep it down myself. Running is not a sin, but running indoors can cause people to break things, so I would tell my children to not run in the house.

 

[viole]

I truly can't answer your question, because it is too vague: It depends, and that is the number 4 on your list, which I add. People stop people from doing things all the time, and those things they are doing are not sins. Such as speaking loudly in a library. If someone was speaking too loudly, I would ask the librarian to tell them to be quiet or maybe I'd ask them to please keep it down myself. Running is not a sin, but running indoors can cause people to break things, so I would tell my children to not run in the house.

ok, we are getting close. Let me change the question, then.

Can you name me a sin that it is committed simply by disobeying a command that tries to forbid something that is not a sin?

Ciao

- viole

 

[ChristineES]

ok, we are getting close. Let me change the question, then.

Can you name me a sin that it is committed simply by disobeying a command that tries to forbid something that is not a sin?

Ciao

- viole

Only in a vague way. Christians are commanded to feed the hungry and clothe the naked. Someone can try and set up a place to give away food to those who don't have enough. A police officer notices that she is breaking some ordinance or another and tells her she has to shut down. In a way, the laws of that city are stopping the person from doing something that not only is not a sin, but is a command, as well.
But I really don't know what you're getting at: Are certain Christians telling you, a non-Christian, not to do things that you feel are not wrong? Sometimes people have different idea of what is right or wrong and some Christians feel a need to bark at people who are sinning, even those not of their faith (I don't know of very many who would do that, but I have known some who would and did).

But if something is not a sin, I personally would not stop someone from doing it, if it is not affecting me at all. But, keep in mind that there are a lot of things, as I have mentioned, that are not sins, yet against the law of the land and if I saw someone breaking the law, depending on what it is, I could call the police (for example, two people screaming at each other and disturbing the peace or something)

Finally, if someone is not following my faith, I really can't tell them if they are sinning or not and certainly wouldn't tell him or her to stop, as it would not even apply to him or her. I can share my faith, if someone wants it, but I can't force ANYONE to follow it.

 

[sojourner]

I understand that that can be a pain but to let this story stand when it has caused and continues to cause so much damage and injustice to women, --- would make those of us who are not misogynous just as immoral as Christians.

For that evil part of Christianity to grow, all good people need do is nothing.

Not discrediting this myth is worse than doing nothing.

Regards
DL

What's being discredited is a poor understanding of the myth -- not the myth itself.

 

[viole]

Only in a vague way. Christians are commanded to feed the hungry and clothe the naked. Someone can try and set up a place to give away food to those who don't have enough. A police officer notices that she is breaking some ordinance or another and tells her she has to shut down. In a way, the laws of that city are stopping the person from doing something that not only is not a sin, but is a command, as well.
But I really don't know what you're getting at: Are certain Christians telling you, a non-Christian, not to do things that you feel are not wrong? Sometimes people have different idea of what is right or wrong and some Christians feel a need to bark at people who are sinning, even those not of their faith (I don't know of very many who would do that, but I have known some who would and did).

But if something is not a sin, I personally would not stop someone from doing it, if it is not affecting me at all. But, keep in mind that there are a lot of things, as I have mentioned, that are not sins, yet against the law of the land and if I saw someone breaking the law, depending on what it is, I could call the police (for example, two people screaming at each other and disturbing the peace or something)

Finally, if someone is not following my faith, I really can't tell them if they are sinning or not and certainly wouldn't tell him or her to stop, as it would not even apply to him or her. I can share my faith, if someone wants it, but I can't force ANYONE to follow it.

Well, of course I do not believe in sin, but you do, I assume. And that is why I ask.

I am not sure that your answer applies to my question. True, screaming around is not a sin, but what the police does to stop that is not a sin, either. What interests me are sins caused uniquely by preventing someone from doing something which is not a sin. Are there any?

More specifically, is it a sin to stop, or try to stop, someone from acquiring knowledge, if acquiring knowledge is not a sin?

Ciao

- viole

 

[ChristineES]

Well, of course I do not believe in sin, but you do, I assume. And that is why I ask.

I am not sure that your answer applies to my question. True, screaming around is not a sin, but what the police does to stop that is not a sin, either. What interests me are sins caused uniquely by preventing someone from doing something which is not a sin. Are there any?

More specifically, is it a sin to stop, or try to stop, someone from acquiring knowledge, if acquiring knowledge is not a sin?

Ciao

- viole

As I have said, Adam and Eve weren't punished for gaining knowledge but for disobedience (Just to get that out of the way). You're right, arresting people for breaking the law isn't a sin, either.
No, gaining knowledge is not a sin in any way. And stopping people from gaining knowledge might be considered a sin, as well (I'd have to do some research on that). This is my opinion.

 

[gnostic]

The Adam and Eve episode in Genesis is a creation myth...a myth that attempt to explain a number of things. A myth is like an allegory or a parable, that have some sorts of instructive meanings or "objective" lessons to the story.

I can see a number of different purposes as to why the Eden myth is written in the way it is, because there are some obvious clues:

1. It is attempting to explain why there are consequences for disobeying God.
2. It is trying to explain why people die.
3. It is also attempting to explain why there are suffering.
4. It is also trying to explain why people must toil for food.

Seeking knowledge or knowing right and wrong, is just one of the themes to Genesis 1 & 2, as are the creation of Adam and Eve.

The Eden myth is not really unique, because other myths have developed similar stories with similar themes or hidden meanings.

The problem is that some people have taken the Eden allegory way to literally and seriously, as if it was a historical record. It is not history.

 

[gnostic]

If seeking knowledge (knowledge in relation to sin, or between good and evil) was a sin, then why would Jesus say something like "...and the truth shall set you free" (John 8:32)?

You can't have the truth about right and wrong, without knowing the differences between the two.

But if eating the fruit from tree of knowledge of good and evil is a sin, then Genesis 2 & 3 has introduce a paradox to the story.

If eating the fruit is the only MEAN to "know" right and wrong, then they couldn't have known it is a sin to disobey God, or if God and the serpent is telling truth or lie about the Tree of Knowledge...especially if they have no knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil.

Did the serpent lie?

As far I can see by reading Genesis 3... ...NO.

They didn't die that "day".

There is assumption (often made by Christians) that Adam and Eve were immortal, that there were no death before eating the forbidden fruit. That's assumption is false.

This assumption come from God said to Adam:

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”

It doesn't say anything about death don't exist...it only say that he will die on that day. They were never immortal, even before eating the forbidden fruit. They would only live forever, if they had eaten the fruit from the tree of life (Genesis 2:9), but clearly they eat from that tree (Genesis 3:22):

22 Then the Lord God said, “See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

This verse indicate they were always "mortal".

Death or mortality didn't exist because God place a curse on Adam and Eve in verses 3:14-19.; they were already mortal. 3:14-19 is not about they will eventually die.

No, they will not only eventually die, but while they live, they will suffer. Women will suffer pain through childbirths, and man (and woman) will have to work and toil for their food; if they don't toil for food, they will suffer from starvation.

Their punishment (3:14-19) is that both man and woman (and their descendants) is they will know pain and suffering before they die. 3:14-19 is not about introducing death, but pain and suffering.

Let's say, as an example, they didn't disobey God, so they didn't eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Let's also say, they didn't eat from the tree of life too. That mean that they are still mortal...the only difference is that there will be no pain and suffering.

Most Christians that I have known, have jumped to the conclusion if Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit of knowledge, that they will live forever, but that assumption is clearly false, because they have misread Genesis 2 & 3.

Heck, I used to believe in this same faulty assumption when I was younger. This is why I no longer trust church teaching of the OT bible. And it is not the only flawed and faulty Christian interpretations that I had fallen for. I thought that the serpent was Satan, because I followed the church interpretation to Genesis 3.

 

[viole]

No, gaining knowledge is not a sin in any way. And stopping people from gaining knowledge might be considered a sin, as well (I'd have to do some research on that). This is my opinion.

Good, we agree, or we would if I believed in sins.

Just to make sure I undestood correctly, let me make a practical example.

Does a Taliban committ a sin if he orders a little girl not to open that book otherwise she will die?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Augustus]

Does a Taliban committ a sin if he orders a little girl not to open that book otherwise she will die?

Does a parent do anything wrong when they tell a child not to open a book which contains images that will traumatise them?

The Gnostic view is similar to the example you present, a malicious demiurge who wants to prevent humans from learning.

The Christian view is similar to my example, a benevolent God attempting to prevent humanity from harm.

The Christian version identifies that not all knowledge is beneficial. This is undeniably true. You wouldn't want knowledge of your parents' sex life for example. It is not telling people that it is wrong to seek any knowledge.

In my opinion, the Christian versions is a much better myth. It cautions against the human tendency towards hubris, identifies that humanity has burdens that can never be escaped from and cautions that knowledge may not be beneficial to the knower. This is an accurate depiction of the human condition and is something attested to in other creation myths also.

 

[viole]

The Christian view is similar to my example, a benevolent God attempting to prevent humanity from harm.

And what did this benevolent God do when His prevention did not work?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Augustus]

And what did this benevolent God do when His prevention did not work?

Ciao

- viole

Same as what a parent does when a child doesn't listen, punishes them so as to teach them a lesson.

Anyway the myth functions to explain the human condition rather than the nature of God, and it does that pretty effectively as far as I am concerned. It's cautionary and anti-utopian message is more realistic than many modern ideologies and outlooks.

 

[ChristineES]

Good, we agree, or we would if I believed in sins.

Just to make sure I understood correctly, let me make a practical example.

Does a Taliban commit a sin if he orders a little girl not to open that book otherwise she will die?

Ciao

- viole

Of course it's wrong. I am no longer calling it a sin (here), since you don't believe in sin, but I find it terribly wrong that people hold back their female children like this in certain countries and in certain cultures. There are other cultures that hold back their females and other countries. Even in our own history, people were guilty of holding back females.

 

[viole]

Of course it's wrong. I am no longer calling it a sin (here), since you don't believe in sin, but I find it terribly wrong that people hold back their female children like this in certain countries and in certain cultures. There are other cultures that hold back their females and other countries. Even in our own history, people were guilty of holding back females.

So, is it equally wrong to say that if you eat from the tree of knowledge you will die?

Ciao

- viole