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Is Islamophobia bigotry?

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Are people to be blamed for bigotry, or are they just being cautious in light that radical terrorism in the name of islam makes people distrust Muslims in general?

Who's fault is it when people are made to feel that way? Themselves, media, or Islamist jihad?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I guess it is relative to where you live. A Shia living near ISIS controlled area, it would be hard to call it bigotry rather than survival. In Europe, there does seem to definitely be cause to be extra alert, but for the most part I would say immigration and mass-media are to blame for actual bigotry. Here in America, it fear-fueled, stupidity-laced stupidity fueled by media, and others, and themselves for getting spooked over what is hardly more of a threat than a ghost.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I guess it is relative to where you live. A Shia living near ISIS controlled area, it would be hard to call it bigotry rather than survival. In Europe, there does seem to definitely be cause to be extra alert, but for the most part I would say immigration and mass-media are to blame for actual bigotry. Here in America, it fear-fueled, stupidity-laced stupidity fueled by media, and others, and themselves for getting spooked over what is hardly more of a threat than a ghost.
I'll go along with this to a large degree. It is mainly because the average garden gnome has virtually no understanding of Islam that fear is even a factor. It is because of the ignorance that so much misinformation gets into discussions. Plus, there is the disturbing fact that no one speaks for all of Islam (or even a large part) that many aspects are hopelessly mangled beyond all recognition. The notion of 72 virgins comes to mind here. Jihad is another. It is as ludicrous to suggest that jihad is not holy war as much as it is to say that it is not inner struggle. It's both.

I could go on for quite some time, I'm afraid, but given that Islam is not especially good news to modern non-Muslims it isn't enough of concern to get frantic over.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Fear of the tiny minority in the USA and elsewhere that have been turned into fanatics is justifiable. Irrational fear of a billion Muslims and millions in the USA is bigotry as @Sartre wrote.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I would like to hear how y'all are defining "bigotry"? On my google the first definition is:

Intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

Now, "Islamophobia" is a fundamentally dishonest term meant to conflate legitimate criticism of the ideas in Islam with Muslims as people. For Islamists, the use of the term is a strategy to further the goal of creating blasphemy laws. Many people would call me Islamophobic, and while I think Islam is a horrible collection of ideas, I'm not intolerant of Muslims. So I don't think I'd qualify as bigoted either, although many people who are vocal as I am are often inaccurately labeled as Islamophobic or bigoted.

Legitimate criticism is neither Islamophobic nor is it bigoted.

And, for the Nth time, from a statistical perspective, terrorism is a red herring, and the real concern is that hundreds of millions of Muslims are anti-secular.
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
Sure, I'd call it bigotry, the vast majority of Muslims have no interest in killing other people just because they aren't Muslims, painting billions of people with the same stereotypical brush has to qualify as bigotry.
It is a two way street though, there are probably many Muslims who regard secular, or 'non-Muslim' nations to be immoral, places where hedonism, exploitation, decadence etc. rule the roost. Fear, ignorance, propaganda, all the ingredients for a lovely bigot pie!
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
I would like to hear how y'all are defining "bigotry"? On my google the first definition is:



Now, "Islamophobia" is a fundamentally dishonest term meant to conflate legitimate criticism of the ideas in Islam with Muslims as people. For Islamists, the use of the term is a strategy to further the goal of creating blasphemy laws. Many people would call me Islamophobic, and while I think Islam is a horrible collection of ideas, I'm not intolerant of Muslims. So I don't think I'd qualify as bigoted either, although many people who are vocal as I am are often inaccurately labeled as Islamophobic or bigoted.

Legitimate criticism is neither Islamophobic nor is it bigoted.

And, for the Nth time, from a statistical perspective, terrorism is a red herring, and the real concern is that hundreds of millions of Muslims are anti-secular.
Wouldn't disagree with any of that, though I'd add that Christianity is a horrible collection of ideas as well. It is harder to see the parallels because I grew up in a country where the Christian heritage is very strong, it permeates our history. We're not the bad guys right? Taking off my cultural spectacles, I think quite often in human history we have been.
 

Grumpuss

Active Member
Jihad.

Unless I imagined that whole hijacked-planes-crashing-into-buildings-and-killing-3,000-people thing. Sorry if I don't subscribe legitimate worry to being a personality defect of the victims.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
“Intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself”.

Isn’t this what is being taught in Mosques and Islamic schools?
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
If people are prejudiced against Muslims because they're afraid they might be terrorists simply as they're Muslim then I'd say that's anti-Muslim prejudice (and why can't we simply say that?) or, if we really must use ****ty buzzwords, Muslimophobia. 'Islamophobia' is a buzzword used to silence any & all criticism of a religion by taking advantage of genuine instances of Muslim persecution and cynically twisting them into a weapon to beat people into silence.

There's also the fact that while it's a minority of Muslims who are prepared to kill for the sake of their beliefs, the number of Muslims who hold views which would be considered extremist if acted upon is... not quite so insignificant. It is not prejudice to say so and is a genuine cause for concern.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I used to assume a lot of things about Islam and Muslims, largely due to what I now realize to be undue extrapolation from Christianity.

Islaam, quite simply, is not easily reconciled with true respect for non-believers. Far too much of the Qur'an relies on the premise that believers are significantly more reliable than us "kuffar". In fact, so much so that a lot of effort has been spent over the years to reassure us that it only looks like a hateful doctrine. An instinctive refusal to accept quite so much vitriol often kicks in on otherwise sincere Muslims, at least when they have enough contact with non-Muslims.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I see a lot more Islamophilia than -phobia going on in many places.
One of the many reasons (the recent burrito truck incident in Portland is another) the Left needs to kick Liberals under the bus if they want to storm DC in 2020. Set them up to look bad in 2018, and curb stomp the Liberals, and run Leftists who are actually Left enough to care enough about free speech to allow a group like the Klan air their own stupidity on their own time.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Are people to be blamed for bigotry, or are they just being cautious in light that radical terrorism in the name of islam makes people distrust Muslims in general?

Who's fault is it when people are made to feel that way? Themselves, media, or Islamist jihad?

I believe bigotry comes about when people are faced with something they fear or don't understand. The media might bear some of the blame here, since it's mainly their job to gather information and help to clarify the world situation. Instead, they make things more vague, imprecise, and muddied. The politicians don't really help much either.

As far as the Islamist jihad is concerned, their message is also pretty muddled and incoherent. Among other reasons for terrorism, it exists mainly as an "attention-getting device." Obviously, there are some disgruntled people in this world who want our attention and want to be listened to. But what are they saying?
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Are people to be blamed for bigotry, or are they just being cautious in light that radical terrorism in the name of islam makes people distrust Muslims in general?

Who's fault is it when people are made to feel that way? Themselves, media, or Islamist jihad?

Possibly but its standard and written in the Quran in Islam so the bigotry Inside never change whereas peoples attitude can.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Are people to be blamed for bigotry, or are they just being cautious in light that radical terrorism in the name of islam makes people distrust Muslims in general?

Who's fault is it when people are made to feel that way? Themselves, media, or Islamist jihad?

If we're talking about Muslims as the collective billion and a half people, then I think it's bigotry to be distrustful of them in general. On the other hand, if we're talking about individual Muslim communities, such as ones where most are conservative and hold beliefs that are homophobic and sexist, then I don't think distrusting such communities in general is necessarily bigoted.

It seems to me that "Islamophobia" is one of the most misused, exploited, and misleading terms as it is used in a lot of religious and political discussions. Semantically, it is fear of Islam the religion, not Muslims as people, and as far as that goes, I think fear of Islam is perfectly fine and even advisable in more than one way. We're talking about a religion whose core scripture contains quotes like these:

Qur'an 24:2 said:
The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

Qur'an 4:56 said:
Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

Qur'an 14:49 said:
And you will see the criminals that Day bound together in shackles,

Qur'an 14:50 said:
Their garments of liquid pitch and their faces covered by the Fire.

(Source of translation.)

Only a few examples. Merriam-Webster lists the definition of "Islamophobia" thus:

Merriam-Webster said:
irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against Islam or people who practice Islam

This "or" between "Islam" and "people" is, in my opinion, the most problematic part about this definition. It doesn't just leave a door open for equivocation and misunderstanding; it creates an entire gate through which disingenuous apologists can comfortably pass. I think there's a huge difference between aversion to Islam and aversion to Muslims, even though the line is sometimes very blurry between the two.

I believe that fearing a religion whose core scripture contains sexism, demonization of non-believers, and support for punishments like lashing and cutting off thieves' hands is definitely justified, whereas fearing a religious demographic consisting of more than a billion and a half people isn't. Inability or refusal to distinguish between fear of Islam and fear of Muslims can be a hindrance to tackling issues like extremism and terrorism effectively.

Also, so-called "jihadism" and terrorism are actually toward the bottom of the list of things that make me fear a lot of the Muslims I regularly deal with. I have literally never feared dying from a terrorist attack, because it's such a relatively unlikely and exaggerated risk. On the other hand, I consistently have to hide a lot of my views for fear of discrimination or unnecessary, extensive trouble if I said the wrong thing or offended the wrong person.

Terrorism and "jihadism" are two of the most overblown and cliched talking points in discussions and debates about Islam as well as the Muslim world. A tiny minority of Muslims are terrorists, but Muslims who believe that apostasy is punishable by death are far from a tiny minority, for example—and this is not the only poll result showing that many Muslims have troublesome beliefs. After all, there's a reason Islamists won elections in Egypt and Tunisia right after "Arab Spring" revolutions.

So, if Islamophobia is used to refer to fear of Muslims in the world in general—which I think is a misuse and exploitation of the word in many cases—then yes, it is bigotry. But if it refers to fear of Islam and certain Muslim communities that hold dangerous beliefs that may not even have anything to do with "jihadism," "radicalism," or terrorism but rather with curtailing civil rights and abuse of certain minorities, then absolutely not: "Islamophobia" in that sense becomes a reasonable and arguably even necessary stance.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
I guess it is relative to where you live. A Shia living near ISIS controlled area, it would be hard to call it bigotry rather than survival.
Doesn’t this put Islamophobia in a little context? You’re saying it would be perfect rational for a Shia Muslim in an ISIS controlled area to fear all Muslims. Lucky they don’t shave because mirrors must be terrifying for them! :rolleyes:
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Doesn’t this put Islamophobia in a little context? You’re saying it would be perfect rational for a Shia Muslim in an ISIS controlled area to fear all Muslims. Lucky they don’t shave because mirrors must be terrifying for them! :rolleyes:
I'm saying they have legitimate reasons to be suspicious, paranoid, and on edge. Of course they wouldn't fear all Muslims, but given Shia and Sunni Muslims have a long history of not getting along, and given ISIS is a Sunni extremist group, yes, it becomes understandable if certain things, including Sunni identity, may trigger them to a degree. That is why I said it's hard to call it bigotry rather than survival. It's a completely different situation than what we know in Europe and North America.
However, here in America, everyone can **** off about it. For Americans, Muslims terrorists just aren't going to be your death. It happens to a few, but drunk drivers killed more people during 2001 than those few Muslim terrorists who carried out the 9/11 attack. Here, if you are are scared, suspicious, or paranoid, you have no real or legitimate purpose or reason for feeling so.
 
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