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Is Islam right and everyone else wrong?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by EnhancedSpirit, Mar 25, 2005.

  1. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    What twisting, explain to me how what i just presented is twisted thinking? What do you conclude after reading those verse's?

    What about when Jesus applied Gods Holy name "I AM" to himself? Is it twisted thinking to conclude he was claiming to be God? The Jews didnt think so, they knew exactly what Jesus was implying hence there response. Not only that but what Jesus said means he existed befor his birth on earth. So he wanst just another prophet. You tell me what you think Jesus was implying?

    Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' " Exodus 3:13-14
    Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!” “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I Am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. John 8:55-59

    It may well be so that it became official doctrine later, but Jesus either is or isnt God, a council's decision about its doctrine dosnt determine it though. Whether or not Jesus is God isnt somthing mankind decides, they can only decide their doctrine and what they belive based on what God choses to reveal to them.
     
  2. aisha

    aisha New Member

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    christianity is not much different towards islam, King Najashi of Ethiopia [Abysinnia back then] even said himself that there is not much difference between islam and cristianity, he himself being a christian himself! Islam isnt a loophole, Its the truth.

    ma'salamah [peace]
     
  3. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Heres an idea.
    How bout instead of people just repeating the same thing without actually backing it up with reasoning (someone else said its true, is not evidence that its true), they provide some reasons for the things they say?

    Here are just some of the points i posted earlier. Some reasons to back up why i belive that Christianity and Islam are very Different.
    1.
    John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
    How is this not opposed to Islam? Does Islam belive that it is through Jesus and ONLY Jesus that you can get to the Father? If not then its different and once again on major aspects what the Jesus taught.

    2.
    John 2:18-22 - Then the Jews demanded of him, “What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?” Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” The Jews replied, “It has taken fortysix years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” But the temple he had spoken of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

    3.
    The very means of gaining Eternal life and avoiding Hell is different and not somthing id want to get wrong.

    I made this point in http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ead.php?t=10859
    Imagine this senario in a courtroom just on earth - Somone murderes somone close to you and are they are Arrested, they are taken to court to meet the judge to see that justice is served. They stand and state there defence "that was the only person i ever killed and im really sorry and just look at all the other people i havnt killed, ive obeyed the law more then ive disobeyed it" Then the judge says "well i guess your right you have obeyed the law more then you have disobeyed it" and then lets the person go free.
    Would you consider that judge to be corrupt? Did that Judge really make sure justice was served? Is that judge a good just judge?

    Keep in mind God knows everything we have done wrong and if he is just he should bring to justice all the things he knows we have done wrong. How can he tolarate sin? if he dosn't punish it just like the judge in the courtroom he is no longer Good and Just.

    The idea that our good erases our bad is illogical, if ive stolen something then not stealing somthing tomorow dosnt hide my guilt. We should do good simply because its good to do so. Just because someone has done more right then wrong dosnt make there wrongs any less wrong! If your god can let people into heaven without justice being served he is very a different god to the Christian God.

    4.
    Romans 3:22-24 - This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.


    If Islam disagrees with some of these important points that christianity is based on then isnt it obvious we serve 2 very different Gods?
    Do you belive Jesus was punished and killed to take on what we deserve to make sure that we could enter heaven and that Gods justice would still be served, that God didnt have to let sin go unpunished, and that Jesus rose again 3 days later? Christianity is based on this, if islam disagrees then stop saying the 2 are not very different!
     
  4. Ziroc

    Ziroc Member

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    We don't serve 2 different Gods, Father in Christian is the same God as Allah in Islam.Its the teachings that are different. And if we serve the same God with two different teachings, one must be true. Can't be both true. So which one? Use your mind(brain). That's why God created us with mind(brain), so we can think and find the truth.
     
  5. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    Alright, let me get this straight... Gods name is "I am?" Is that what YHWH means? If so, you've got a case. If not, and god just says, I am who I am, that implies alot. I can even say that and it have no divine meaning.

    When thomas put his hand in Jesus' side and said "My lod my god." How do you know he was directing that statement to jesus and not god? It seems Thomas knew that god could allow jesus to be risen from the dead, doesn't mean jesus was god.

    God is the first and last cause. Jesus said he was the living one, which means he's the first and last living one, not cause. God cannot die, jesus did because he was man. Not god. Just because jesus said he was the first and last, doesn't mean he's god.

    If jesus did say, "I am has sent me to you," that implies that YHWH has sent him. Not him self. That is, if YHWH actually means "I am."

    And when he's talking about knowing god, he's not talking about himself. And then he says "before abraham was born, I am." Again, if YHWH means I am, than he's still talking about god, and not himself.

    See how you can twist things around to make different meanings. Plus, we don't even know if Jesus actually said any of this. No one even knows who actually wrote the bible. It could be completely heresay and not valid at all. Which is why it can be twisted to make it mean, whatever you want it to. But thats the point of a good book, when you read it, it becomes your world, your fantasy. But when you make that fantasy real, than it becomes a problem.
     
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  6. Dr. Khan

    Dr. Khan Member

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    Not everyone who says he is Christian is true. The books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, each provide us with insight about the types of Christian He is looking for in the earth. If you want to Look they are Matt.13; Mark4; Luke 8; King Najashi never knew Jesus if he said that.The Kingdom of Heaven is not about right and wrong; good and evil, but about righteousness, peace, and Joy in the [Holy Ghost] a real person. It is he that makes all the diference inthe world. This King you quote more than likely had no idea about the Holy Ghost since from sometime after 100ad all the way to 1907 He was not poured out on anyone all the years between.
     
  7. alex60

    alex60 Member

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    The world is in absolute balance,suspended in space,every force has a counter force,good and evil,positive and negative.Now we learn that even matter has it's anti-matter.When christianity was created it spread around the whole old world,then came Islam as counter force.Even though it was created from the same source, it remains till today as it's main foe.
     
  8. Ziroc

    Ziroc Member

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    Islam is not the counter force of christianity. Islam is not the foe of christianity. Islam came with peace, to straighten things changed by the hand of humans in the original bible that Jesus the Prophet (alaihissalam) brought, which should've teached the house of Israel to worship the one and only one God, Allah subhanahuwata'ala. And Prophet Jesus(as) only came for the sake of the house of Israel, while Islam which was brought by Prophet Muhammad (sallalahuaalaihiwasalam) came for the sake of the WHOLE UNIVERSE.

    But if you look at it that way, then I guess you might have an issue with Islam.
     
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  9. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Islam is a counter force against christianity! I dont know how you can say it isnt. Christianity is the belife that Christ was punished in our place so that God could let us into heaven and still justice would be served.
    Islam denies that this is what Christ came to earth for, so it is opposed to foundational belifes of Christians.
    You say that Islam is here to straighten out what you belive was changed by humans concerning what Jesus really said and was here for. Id say Islam is here to corrupt what Jesus said and did while on earth.
    If the 2 Gods professed by each religion require different things then its safe to say they are different Gods, because one is different to the other! Its not that hard to figure out!
    True Christianity is God reaching down towards mankind and making peace with him by paying the fine that we owed, thus we can be reconciled back to a realationship with God, our debt is cleared.
    This is not somthing we could have done ourselves if we are guilty and are and charged then it would be unjust for God to let us go with out our Sin being paid for.
    Christianity is God mending the relationship that we broke, Islam is man trying to mend it through good works. If we are seperated from God because of our sin, then we have shattered the righteousness needed to stand befor Him.
     
  10. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    Be nice, please. No name-calling, as this is a civil place, and I rather dislike it when people try to make it otherwise.
     
  11. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Quaint.
     
  12. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    It sure would be a wonderful history - writing from the grave like that.
     
  13. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Bless you, bless you, bless you.
     
  14. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Steve,

    Things aren't that simple or easy. Islam includes some statements of tolerance in the Quran (and of intolerance) of Christianity, but I do believe Muhammed borrowed from Christianity to create Islam (naturally Muslims look at this differently). Christianity already had a dialectical force opposed to it if we were to look for that: paganism, and in many places paganism remained in its seat long after Christianity's introduction (such as India). Islam also isn't about man reaching up to God, because they believe the Quran to be God reaching to man. Christianity wasn't about Christ taking our punishment on the cross that the Law had prescribed to us. Anslem hadn't even been born to codify that, and Augustine hadn't taken the analogy that far.

    The model is too simple. It does a disservice to both Muslims and Christians.
     
  15. Quoth The Raven

    Quoth The Raven Half Arsed Muse

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    Popeye was also known to say 'I am what I am,' at every available opportunity. I'm sure that we're not going to claim he's God based on that incontrovertible evidence, are we?
     
  16. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Really? Im actually surprised you would say that! From other posts you have made you often seem to know alot about the bible but (no offence intended :)) do you actually understand its message? Why do you think Christ was punished on the cross?

    What do you make of verses like these?

    Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:4-6

    This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished– he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Romans 3:22-26

    This is a central theme to Christianity, Jesus the unblemished lamb of God becoming a sacrifice for our sake. When you stand befor God is it your own righteousness thats going to let you to avoid Gods judgement? Or is it righteousness from God that comes through faith in Jesus Christ because Jesus has taken your sins upon himself when he was tortured and crucified on the cross?





    The issue that brought this up was who Jesus actually claimed to be, In the context that Jesus sayed "I am" its obvious what he was implying. Just because someone else, popeye in your example, says it dosnt mean they are implying the same thing, it depends on the context.
     
  17. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    I answered this in another thread. It would be off-topic here.
     
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