Is Islam peaceful?

[Muslim-UK]

This statement can certainly predispose the faithful against us heathens.
The "worst creatures"...pretty harsh prejudice.
And would this apply not just atheists, but those of different religions, eg, Hindus?

This applies to everyone that has had the message explained to them, and thereafter decide not to believe. It is GOD who is saying, such people are the worst creatures, and as His creation, it is for Him alone to decide how and when to punish them. We know from Hadiths that the Prophets and Messengers sent to those Nations will ask God to overlook their follower's shortcomings and grant them Heaven.

Could such statements mean that if some in a country war against you, that all in the country
(not just soldiers) are fair game to kill...even if we personally have not attacked you?

Absolutely not, it is forbidden to tamper with water supplies, and orchards. Forbidden to harm non combatants, forbidden to harm those in Churches and Synagogues, forbidden to refuse terms of surrender and peace:


Before engaging in battle, the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) instructed his soldiers:

1. “Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person.” (Sunan Abu Dawud)

2. “Do not practice treachery or mutilation.(Al-Muwatta)

3. Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees.(Al-Muwatta)

4. Do not slaughter a sheep or a cow or a camel, except for food.” (Al-Muwatta)

5. “If one fights his brother, [he must] avoid striking the face, for God created him in the image of Adam.” (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim)

6. “Do not kill the monks in monasteries, and do not kill those sitting in places of worship. (Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal)

7. “Do not destroy the villages and towns, do not spoil the cultivated fields and gardens, and do not slaughter the cattle.” (Sahih Bukhari; Sunan Abu Dawud)

8. “Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy; pray to God to grant you security; but when you [are forced to] encounter them, exercise patience.” (Sahih Muslim)

9. “No one may punish with fire except the Lord of Fire.” (Sunan Abu Dawud).

10. “Accustom yourselves to do good if people do good, and to not do wrong even if they commit evil.” (Al-Tirmidhi)

Verse in the Holy Quraan

And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: “Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!” Qur'an 4:75

 

[osgart]

how many versions of Islam are there?

and how am i misinterpreting jihad?

are there bad English translations to avoid?

iv e heard Christians get a free pass to heaven in one version of Islam.

Jesus a prophet?

 

[Revoltingest]

This applies to everyone that has had the message explained to them, and thereafter decide not to believe.

That would be me....sort of.
But I never decided to not believe.
I was born not believing in the Bible, the Koran, or any other sacred books.
Nothing ever convinced me to switch sides.
This was no more a "decision" than to reject 2+2=5 because it's impossible to believe.

It is GOD who is saying, such people are the worst creatures, and as His creation, it is for Him alone to decide how and when to punish them.

I know you're not responsible for what's in the Koran.
But if God says it is so, than this is for Muslims to believe without question.
(After all, they cannot cherry pick the parts they want or don't want.)
Such hostile prejudice doesn't bode well for us non-believers.

We know from Hadiths that the Prophets and Messengers sent to those Nations will ask God to overlook their follower's shortcomings and grant them Heaven.

Are the Hadiths the word of God?
Many Muslims say no.

Absolutely not, it is forbidden to tamper with water supplies, and orchards. Forbidden to harm non combatants, forbidden to harm those in Churches and Synagogues, forbidden to refuse terms of surrender and peace:

Many Muslims disagree about harming non-combatants.
How would I know which interpretation is the true one?
To kill the "worst creatures" wouldn't seem to be a crime.

Before engaging in battle, the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) instructed his soldiers:
1. “Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person.” (Sunan Abu Dawud)
2. “Do not practice treachery or mutilation.(Al-Muwatta)
3. Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees.(Al-Muwatta)
4. Do not slaughter a sheep or a cow or a camel, except for food.” (Al-Muwatta)
5. “If one fights his brother, [he must] avoid striking the face, for God created him in the image of Adam.” (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim)
6. “Do not kill the monks in monasteries, and do not kill those sitting in places of worship. (Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal)
7. “Do not destroy the villages and towns, do not spoil the cultivated fields and gardens, and do not slaughter the cattle.” (Sahih Bukhari; Sunan Abu Dawud)
8. “Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy; pray to God to grant you security; but when you [are forced to] encounter them, exercise patience.” (Sahih Muslim)
9. “No one may punish with fire except the Lord of Fire.” (Sunan Abu Dawud).
10. “Accustom yourselves to do good if people do good, and to not do wrong even if they commit evil.” (Al-Tirmidhi)
Verse in the Holy Quraan
And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: “Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!” Qur'an 4:75

It all sounds noble.
But I notice exclusions in the prohibition of mistreatment....us
heathens (who aren't in churches) who aren't women or children.
Sounds like we're fair game.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Are the Hadiths the word of God?
Many Muslims say no.

The Authentic Hadiths are accepted by the majority of Muslims, meaning over 80% of the adherents of Islam, and this is based on the teachings of the Qur'an. Here's one verse:

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. Qur'an 4:59

The Hadiths are a collection of sayings and actions of the Final Prophet of Allah swt

Many Muslims disagree about harming non-combatants.
How would I know which interpretation is the true one?
To kill the "worst creatures" wouldn't seem to be a crime.

We follow the Qur'an and Hadiths. We also look to the Ulema, religious Scholars and their fatwas. The overwhelming majority view is everything I've been telling.

Obviously there will always be people who don't study and are influenced by hate preachers who justify killing innocent people, based on bombs being dropped on Hospitals and innocent civilians. The modern term for this in the West is collateral damage. Ultimately people can follow the rules or allow their hate to overcome them.

It all sounds noble.
But I notice exclusions in the prohibition of mistreatment....us
heathens (who aren't in churches) who aren't women or children.
Sounds like we're fair game.

The Qur’an demands of believers that they exercise justice toward people even where they have reason to be angry with them: “And do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness.” Qur'an 5:8

 

[icehorse]

Have you got a reason why you would expect a bigger impact from Ghazali than the major structural changes to society that I listed?

(First off, it's fun to be sparring again )

It seems like this boils down to one of our long running disagreements, my summary of which is that I see religion as a much bigger factor in shaping society than you do. Does that seem like a fair summary?

So my understanding is that Ghazali is considered to be the 2nd most influential Muslim ever. My reasoning is that if the 2nd most influential Muslim ever made a big deal out of saying that Allah, not physics, is what makes the world run, such a claim would have a strong negative impact on intellectual pursuits outside of theology.

 

[YmirGF]

The Qur’an demands of believers that they exercise justice toward people even where they have reason to be angry with them: “And do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness.” Qur'an 5:8

That being the case, why is there so little justice in the Muslim world? Muslim majority countries routinely top the list of human rights abuses and have since lists were made.

 

[Muslim-UK]

That being the case, why is there so little justice in the Muslim world? Muslim majority countries routinely top the list of human rights abuses and have since lists were made.

They're not being ruled according to the Shariah as was practised by the first 4 Caliphs of Islam. Jews as one of the most persecuted groups in the History of mankind, would often prefer to live under Muslim rule, and indeed when the Crusaders descended on Jerusalem, both Eastern Orthodox Christians and Jews helped the Muslims against the Romans.

 

[YmirGF]

They're not being ruled according to the Shariah as was practised by the first 4 Caliphs of Islam. Jews as one of the most persecuted groups in the History of mankind, would often prefer to live under Muslim rule, and indeed when the Crusaders descended on Jerusalem, both Eastern Orthodox Christians and Jews helped the Muslims against the Romans.

And some Jews collaborated with the Nazi's. Your point is? Likewise, drilling back into history a thousand years for an example to thwart current realities certainly underscores my point.

 

[Muslim-UK]

And some Jews collaborated with the Nazi's. Your point is? Likewise, drilling back into history a thousand years for an example to thwart current realities certainly underscores my point.

Go back to the Ottomon Empire then, less than 100 years. Go back a few years to Turkey, Dubai, Iran, Iraq, Egypt and many other Countries that show people of differing faiths lived together in peace. Both the Qur'an and Hadiths preach tolerance. How a minority of people behave is another matter. Religious Education in trouble spots should be made compulsion, so people understand what their religion actually teaches.

 

[YmirGF]

Go back to the Ottomon Empire then, less than 100 years. Go back a few years to Turkey, Dubai, Iran, Iraq, Egypt and many other Countries that show people of differing faiths lived together in peace. Both the Qur'an and Hadiths preach tolerance. How a minority of people behave is another matter. Religious Education in trouble spots should be made compulsion, so people understand what their religion actually teaches.

Wait? What? I thought there was no compulsion in religion? So, you are good with compulsion in religion? That is certainly instructive.

 

[Revoltingest]

The Authentic Hadiths are accepted by the majority of Muslims, meaning over 80% of the adherents of Islam, and this is based on the teachings of the Qur'an. Here's one verse:

Only 80% agreement?

The Hadiths are a collection of sayings and actions of the Final Prophet of Allah swt
We follow the Qur'an and Hadiths. We also look to the Ulema, religious Scholars and their fatwas. The overwhelming majority view is everything I've been telling.

Obviously there will always be people who don't study and are influenced by hate preachers who justify killing innocent people, based on bombs being dropped on Hospitals and innocent civilians. The modern term for this in the West is collateral damage. Ultimately people can follow the rules or allow their hate to overcome them.

The Qur’an demands of believers that they exercise justice toward people even where they have reason to be angry with them: “And do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness.” Qur'an 5:8

I see a big problem with branding a great many people the "worst creatures".
The quoted term to me would mean murderers, child molesters, terrorists, etc.
If many millions of us are to be viewed as such, this increases the probability
that Muslims who mis-read the intent you see, are very angry, or are sociopaths
will behave like this.....
Canadian says child killed, U.S. wife raped during Afghan kidnapping
We all have enemies of some sort. But to look down upon them
as less than human results in the worst atrocities we see in war.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Wait? What? I thought there was no compulsion in religion? So, you are good with compulsion in religion? That is certainly instructive.

Nothing wrong with receiving a education covering the basics of the religion most of these people are born into. Doesn't mean they have to practice the faith. I noted most of the people joining Isis didn't even have a rudimentary understanding of Islam.

Leaked Isis documents reveal what Muslims have been saying all along about Isis

 

[Muslim-UK]

Only 80% agreement?

Yes and 99.99 of the 20% would agree with the information I gave using the Qur'an. Most of the 20% are Shia following their own Hadiths and Scholars who also agree with the majority view on combat.

I see a big problem with branding a great many people the "worst creatures".

Not sure why you think it a great many. Most worship God in the way it was revealed to them, and unless they have been told about Islam in a easy to understand way, then they are not amongst the 'worst creatures'. This applies to non religious people too.

The quoted term to me would mean murderers, child molesters, terrorists, etc.
If many millions of us are to be viewed as such, this increases the probability
that Muslims who mis-read the intent you see, are very angry, or are sociopaths
will behave like this.....
Canadian says child killed, U.S. wife raped during Afghan kidnapping

Can't comment on the article as nothing is verified at this point, but even so, you would have to show the people holding them were practising Muslims, which seems 99.99% unlikely.

The criminals you mentioned in the first line are seen as better people in the sight of GOD, than those who reject the message, only IF they repent and own up to their crimes in this life, or risk punishment for them in the hereafter.

We all have enemies of some sort. But to look down upon them
as less than human results in the worst atrocities we see in war.

When has war ever produced anything less than atrocious actions by some rogue elements?

 

[danieldemol]

Go back to the Ottomon Empire then, less than 100 years. Go back a few years to Turkey, Dubai, Iran, Iraq, Egypt and many other Countries that show people of differing faiths lived together in peace. Both the Qur'an and Hadiths preach tolerance. How a minority of people behave is another matter. Religious Education in trouble spots should be made compulsion, so people understand what their religion actually teaches.

You would want to go back more than just a "few years" if you are talking about Iran.

 

[Muslim-UK]

You would want to go back more than just a "few years" if you are talking about Iran.

I'm sure you're referring to treatment of people who follow your faith. I'm guessing it didn't help matters when a group of their leaders attempted to kill the ruling authority in Iran during the 19th Century.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not sure why you think it a great many. Most worship God in the way it was revealed to them, and unless they have been told about Islam in a easy to understand way, then they are not amongst the 'worst creatures'. This applies to non religious people too.

There are millions & millions of atheists/agnostics in the world.
We've heard the message of many religions, including Islam.
We reject'm all as pure myth.

How is a Muslim to treat us relative to a believer of Islam, Hinduism or Scientology?

Can't comment on the article as nothing is verified at this point, but even so, you would have to show the people holding them were practising Muslims, which seems 99.99% unlikely.

Even if the article isn't cromulent, there are numerous examples of Muslims attacking the innocent.

The criminals you mentioned in the first line are seen as better people in the sight of GOD, than those who reject the message, only IF they repent and own up to their crimes in this life, or risk punishment for them in the hereafter.

So their evil works are forgivable, but those of us who don't buy the myths are worse?
In my book, a child molester, murderer or violent rapist are not made good by repenting.
They might simply not be as utterly evil.

To condemn entire classes of good people whose only 'crime' is not believing
a particular religion poses a danger.
This is not convincing me that Islam is a true or even remotely acceptable religion.

When has war ever produced anything less than atrocious actions by some rogue elements?

But even in war, there are some who wage it with honor.
They can do what needs to be done, without rape, torture, or murder or non-combatants.

 

[danieldemol]

I'm sure you're referring to treatment of people who follow your faith. I'm guessing it didn't help matters when a group of their leaders attempted to kill the ruling authority in Iran during the 19th Century.

Following the severe persecutions of the Babis in 1848–1850 and the execution of the Bab in 1850, the Babi movement was left shattered and with no clear leadership. In Tehran, two differing groups appeared among the Babis of the city. One group, under the leadership of ‘Azim and Azal, wanted to go to war with the Iranian government, partly to fulfill their apocalyptic and millennialist vision and partly out of revenge for persecutions they had suffered. The other, under the leadership of Baha’u’llah, looked to rebuild relationships with the government and advance the Babi cause by persuasion and the example of virtuous living.

Baha'u'llah was wrongly imprisoned, it is not just to charge everyone with the crimes of a few.

 

[Muslim-UK]

There are millions & millions of atheists/agnostics in the world.
We've heard the message of many religions, including Islam.
We reject'm all as pure myth.

How is a Muslim to treat us relative to a believer of Islam, Hinduism or Scientology?

You're not attacking Muslims, thus no Muslim has a right to harm you. You have your way, and we have ours. Remember in the sight of GOD you having understood the message are viewed as the worst of creation, and it is for HIM alone to do with you as HE pleases when you return to Him.

Muslims are just responsible for relaying the message as best we can.

Even if the article isn't cromulent, there are numerous examples of Muslims attacking the innocent.

And numerous articles showing people from ALL backgrounds, faiths and no faiths attacking innocent people. It just shows every community has its bad sheep.

So their evil works are forgivable, but those of us who don't buy the myths are worse?
In my book, a child molester, murderer or violent rapist are not made good by repenting.
They might simply not be as utterly evil.

Your book makes no difference. Our ouls don't return to you for any kind of Judgement.

To condemn entire classes of good people whose only 'crime' is not believing
a particular religion poses a danger.
This is not convincing me that Islam is a true or even remotely acceptable religion.

You don't believe in a Creator and think death leads to nothingness, thus no danger of standing before GOD and facing Judgement for being the 'worst of creatures'. I'm not even sure why Atheists bother posting on here. If you're wrong and there is GOD waiting for you, I'm sure you will be able to convince Him of your arguments. You should be aware, on that day your thoughts and anything you conceal will be laid bare.

But even in war, there are some who wage it with honor.
They can do what needs to be done, without rape, torture, or murder or non-combatants.

Rape, torture and murder of non combatants is forbidden in Islam. If others are taught to fight with the same honour, then great.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Baha'u'llah was wrongly imprisoned, it is not just to charge everyone with the crimes of a few.

I agree, and am sure a few televised debates between the best apologists from the Bahai faith vs Muslim Scholars would soon show people which of the 2 is the right path. Do you know of any such debates?

 

[danieldemol]

I do not know of any