Is Islam Compatible With Western Values?

[Rival]

Is Islam able to integrate into Europe, Canada, Australia etc, seamlessly? By the way, I'm not talking about the westernised Muslims here, the ones who know a few Qur'anic ayat and not much else. I mean are the values that the Qur'an, Shariah, etc. promote, compatible with Western Values?

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Is Islam able to integrate into Europe, Canada, Australia etc, seamlessly? By the way, I'm not talking about the westernised Muslims here, the ones who know a few Qur'anic ayat and not much else. I mean are the values that the Qur'an, Shariah, etc. promote, compatible with Western Values?

No imho not in 2016 when is no need be so strict , if humanity falls of the edge Islam is an anchor to things that just might be .

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Another way anything that has survived until 2016 given the odds deserves just a little respect if only on a basis of understanding from outside the box.

 

[Ex Muslim]

Is Islam able to integrate into Europe, Canada, Australia etc, seamlessly? By the way, I'm not talking about the westernised Muslims here, the ones who know a few Qur'anic ayat and not much else. I mean are the values that the Qur'an, Shariah, etc. promote, compatible with Western Values?

I don't think so, Muhammad set it up so that Islam would always be at odds with other cultures/religions. He took the things people enjoy doing and made them haraam, but promised Muslims they'll get all the good stuff in the next life. So Muslims generally look at other ways of life with contempt and prob think this is what Allah and messenger hate.

Nietzches slave morality comes to mind when thinking of Muhammad and Islamic laws.

 

[Sunstone]

Is Islam able to integrate into Europe, Canada, Australia etc, seamlessly?

I think for something like that to happen, Islam must be reformed. And I suspect that if and when Muslim immigrants are socially, politically, and economically assimilated into Western societies, the necessary reforms to Islam will follow.

I see American Muslims as likely to lead the way in reforming Islam precisely because America does a relatively good job at assimilating immigrants and their offspring. It's my impression that European nations are much less effective at assimilation than America. However, whether or how soon any reforms to Islam originating with Western Muslims spread to traditionally Muslim countries in the Middle East, etc. is another matter.

 

[Laika]

Is Islam able to integrate into Europe, Canada, Australia etc, seamlessly? By the way, I'm not talking about the westernised Muslims here, the ones who know a few Qur'anic ayat and not much else. I mean are the values that the Qur'an, Shariah, etc. promote, compatible with Western Values?

Most "Western Values" are incompatible with orthodox or conservative interpretations of ANY religion. Of course, when you are dealing with a "living" religion and not something treated in the abstract, it doesn't matter what is actually written in the holy book because all that counts is what is in the minds of the adherents. In order for a religion to be westernised, the belief in individual liberty has to take precedence over divine authority. i.e. It is the "right" of individuals to chose whether or not they accept one religion, what aspects of it they accept or follow, and what practices they adopt irrespective of any claimed authority of its scripture, church or religious institution. In western cultures, it is the "individual" (nominally) as the source of moral authority as opposed to god.

Islamic doctrine may well contain the seeds of a theocratic political movement, but I do not expect that after centuries of practice western imperialism will capitulate out of a "respect" for tradition. Whether by bombs or billboards, Muslims will be westernised. Whatever may be true of the particulars of Islam, I wouldn't under-estimate the power of the western messiah complex in its "civilising mission" to make the world a "better place" in its own image, particularly if precious natural resources and cheap labour are involved.

the Islamic world will lower their borders to "globalisation" and "free trade". Then broadcast through millions of television screens day and night in the name of "free press" and "free speech", the western corporate propaganda machine can get to work at telling them that they should be "free" and how to live their lives. And pretty soon they'll believe that being blasphemous sinners and spiritually unfulfilled consumers is not a "western value"- its "human nature". Even members of ISIL enjoy a Big Mac.

http://kitchenette.jezebel.com/isis-fighters-apparently-love-american-junk-food-1691480658

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Most "Western Values" are incompatible with orthodox or conservative interpretations of ANY religion. Of course, when you are dealing with a "living" religion and not something treated in the abstract, it doesn't matter what is actually written in the holy book because all that counts is what is in the minds of the adherents. In order for a religion to be westernised, the belief in individual liberty has to take precedence over divine authority. i.e. It is the "right" of individuals to chose whether or not they accept one religion, what aspects of it they accept or follow, and what practices they adopt irrespective of any claimed authority of its scripture, church or religious institution. In western cultures, it is the "individual" (nominally) as the source of moral authority as opposed to god.

Islamic doctrine may well contain the seeds of a theocratic political movement, but I do not expect that after centuries of practice western imperialism will capitulate out of a "respect" for tradition. Whether by bombs or billboards, Muslims will be westernised. Whatever may be true of the particulars of Islam, I wouldn't under-estimate the power of the western messiah complex in its "civilising mission" to make the world a "better place" in its own image, particularly if precious natural resources and cheap labour are involved.

the Islamic world will lower their borders to "globalisation" and "free trade". Then broadcast through millions of television screens day and night in the name of "free press" and "free speech", the western corporate propaganda machine can get to work at telling them that they should be "free" and how to live their lives. And pretty soon they'll believe that being blasphemous sinners and spiritually unfulfilled consumers is not a "western value"- its "human nature". Even members of ISIL enjoy a Big Mac.

http://kitchenette.jezebel.com/isis-fighters-apparently-love-american-junk-food-1691480658

I would argue the rise of the Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIS, etc., is largely in response of some portions of the traditional societies to the imperialism of the Western culture. The public face of these movements, to be effective at all, must be radical in their opposition to anything and everything Western; once the West has been "driven out" or "defeated," (an interesting concept: after all, Saddam had his butt kicked in the first Gulf conflict, but since he wasn't driven out, for 12 years he was able to claim victory over the West--and in a very real sense, he did win on that basis) I would expect the appeal of the radicals to diminish and the development of more progressive ideologies to come to dominate.

 

[Ex Muslim]

I would argue the rise of the Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIS, etc., is largely in response of some portions of the traditional societies to the imperialism of the Western culture. The public face of these movements, to be effective at all, must be radical in their opposition to anything and everything Western; once the West has been "driven out" or "defeated," (an interesting concept: after all, Saddam had his butt kicked in the first Gulf conflict, but since he wasn't driven out, for 12 years he was able to claim victory over the West--and in a very real sense, he did win on that basis) I would expect the appeal of the radicals to diminish and the development of more progressive ideologies to come to dominate.

I hope you're right and that a more progressive attitude prevails amongst Muslims.

I doubt it will happen though. Muslims see Muhammad as the perfect man, who was given the perfect revelation by God, they believe that the three generations of Muslims who lived with and after the Prophet are the best of all times (based on an authentic Hadith) and that Islam will flourish again if similar conditions can be met. So Muslims are in a way trying/willing to take us back to conditions similar to 7th century Arabia.

Any progressive Muslims that do stand up (such as Quilliam Foundation in the UK) are labeled as "modernists" and are basically kicked out of the fold of Islam despite calling themselves Muslim.

Sorry about all the pessimism.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I hope you're right and that a more progressive attitude prevails amongst Muslims.

I doubt it will happen though. Muslims see Muhammad as the perfect man, who was given the perfect revelation by God, they believe that the three generations of Muslims who lived with and after the Prophet are the best of all times (based on an authentic Hadith) and that Islam will flourish again if similar conditions can be met. So Muslims are in a way trying/willing to take us back to conditions similar to 7th century Arabia.

Any progressive Muslims that do stand up (such as Quilliam Foundation in the UK) are labeled as "modernists" and are basically kicked out of the fold of Islam despite calling themselves Muslim.

Sorry about all the pessimism.

No worries about pessimism--somebody's got to think about the other possibilities. I'm just suggesting that the current appeal of the founding times is linked tightly with the sense of oppression many Muslims (and in fact, others in other areas of the globe) feel about Western culture, which has imposed itself around the globe for the last ~500 years at the expense of those peoples and cultures. I think it's natural for people to cast back to "better" times of their culture--but when they finally get out of the oppression, I think they will start looking ahead again, or looking fondly back on some things that the oppressors brought that were nice to have...

 

[wizanda]

I mean are the values that the Qur'an, Shariah, etc. promote, compatible with Western Values?

Western law is established on Biblical Law, so really would westerners accept Jewish Law if it was still practised fully?

Which is less severe, Judaism or Islam (going to start a new thread on this)?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Western law is established on Biblical Law, so really would westerners accept Jewish Law if it was still practised fully?

Which is less severe, Judaism or Islam (going to start a new thread on this)?

I doubt it. Most Western law seems to be secular in nature. Speaking from what I know, Scots Law is derived from Roman law, not the Bible.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Is Islam able to integrate into Europe, Canada, Australia etc, seamlessly? By the way, I'm not talking about the westernised Muslims here, the ones who know a few Qur'anic ayat and not much else. I mean are the values that the Qur'an, Shariah, etc. promote, compatible with Western Values?

Not likely. There will be hiccups, particularly as refugees from heavily Islamised societies arrive in Europe and find they are not able to act according to the norms of their own society - 'culture shock' will take place. Aside from that, I don't think Islam can integrate into Western society without being significantly neutered e.g. its political aspects. Islam, while ironically centred around an attitude of enslavement, is not used to being the minority.

If you want a more practical example, look at the UNDHR and how more than a few Muslim countries reacted to it. Basically they called the UNDHR a "relativistic secular understanding of the Judeo-Christian tradition", wouldn't sign it and ended up drafting their own Islamic version. It's called the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam, it was adopted by that nest of vipers called the Organisation of the Islamic Conference, and here's a summary of differences from the UNDHR I sourced from Wikipedia:

1. Right to privacy for families but not individuals;
2. Right to freedom of religion is not guaranteed; Article 10 of the Cairo Declaration forbids conversion out of Islam (apostasy);
3. Men & women do not have equal rights in general. Only in specific cases e.g. "equal human dignity", "own rights to enjoy", "duties to perform", "own civil entity", "financial independence", and the "right to retain her name and lineage". Further, women are given inferior rights when it comes to marriageable age as well as matters of inheritance from dead relatives.
4. The CDHRI declares "equality and justice for all" within the limitations provided by Sharia law.
5. Article 22 guarantees freedom of speech as long as it isn't considered 'blasphemous' e.g. insulting the Prophets etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam

 

[George-ananda]

Is Islam able to integrate into Europe, Canada, Australia etc, seamlessly? By the way, I'm not talking about the westernised Muslims here, the ones who know a few Qur'anic ayat and not much else. I mean are the values that the Qur'an, Shariah, etc. promote, compatible with Western Values?

I think Muslims entering the western world have to acknowledge the primacy of secular freedoms. They have to be content to practice their religion in a way that does not oppose any secular laws and freedoms. I think it is possible.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Immigrants, as a whole, when moving from their own culture to one that is very different are very rarely able to assimilate. In short, the answer is no, and we know this just by looking at immigrants. Their children will be more assimilated, having being raised with the background of their parent's culture in addition to the culture of what is their native culture. And then from there it depends on many things.

I think Muslims entering the western world have to acknowledge the primacy of secular freedoms. They have to be content to practice their religion in a way that does not oppose any secular laws and freedoms. I think it is possible.

This I do agree with. I do not mind if Muslims come here, but I do expect them to at least respect our ways, and not expect us to change our ways because they may be uncomfortable with them. They shouldn't expect our women to cover up no more than we should expect their women to uncover themselves. But if they cannot respect that, if they expect us to change our ways for them, then they shouldn't have come here in the first place, and it would be better if they move on if they cannot peacefully live here while respecting our ways.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think for something like that to happen, Islam must be reformed. And I suspect that if and when Muslim immigrants are socially, politically, and economically assimilated into Western societies, the necessary reforms to Islam will follow.

I see American Muslims as likely to lead the way in reforming Islam precisely because America does a relatively good job at assimilating immigrants and their offspring. It's my impression that European nations are much less effective at assimilation than America. However, whether or how soon any reforms to Islam originating with Western Muslims spread to traditionally Muslim countries in the Middle East, etc. is another matter.

I somewhat agree, but how realistic is such an expectation? Shias and Sunnis have been hoping to convince each other for over a dozen centuries and making a big enough deal of it to insist on living on separate countries and resorting to insults and war when that is not possible.

 

[Sunstone]

I somewhat agree, but how realistic is such an expectation? Shias and Sunnis have been hoping to convince each other for over a dozen centuries and making a big enough deal of it to insist on living on separate countries and resorting to insults and war when that is not possible.

Actually, Luis, ethnic and religious groups that are warring in their homelands come to the States all the time, assimilate, and stop fighting here. It's happened that way through-out our history.

 

[LuisDantas]

Western law is established on Biblical Law, so really would westerners accept Jewish Law if it was still practised fully?

Which is less severe, Judaism or Islam (going to start a new thread on this)?

The Bible, fortunately, is not anywhere near as influential as that.

 

[LuisDantas]

Actually, Luis, ethnic and religious groups that are warring in their homelands come to the States all the time, assimilate, and stop fighting here. It's happened that way through-out our history.

Apparently not quite so much anymore, if the willingness to vote in a candidate who promises a wall to separate you from Mexico is any indication.

In any case, I don't think you are proposing immigration as such, are you? I thought the OP was aiming somewhat higher than that and asking not about immigration and integration but about mutual acceptance and respect.

On a second reading, I may have presumed too much.

 

[Sunstone]

Apparently not quite so much anymore, if the willingness to vote in a candidate who promises a wall to separate you from Mexico is any indication.

It's not. What I'm talking about is very different from anti-immigrate fears.

 

[Agnostic Religiophile]

What would not integrating mean to you? Would it be Muslims sending their children to Islamic shools, women wearing the niqab or burka, I'm not quite sure sorry