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Is Hell a just punishment?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by jorylore, Aug 16, 2005.

  1. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Is Hell a just punishment? In my way of thinking, "hell" is the common grave of mankind. This is in the Scriptures. Since it is appointed unto man to die once, man will go unto the grave once. A just punishment? Depends on who appointed unto man to have to die once. If it was God then it would of had to of been just. On the other hand, perhaps Satan appointed it unto man, on that case I would have to say it wasn't just. As for the picture of hell the thread was taken were ignoring Scripture and associated hell with eternal punishments verses traveling away unto heaven. The classic hollywood and religious stuff outside of the Scriptures.
     
  2. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    To quote (I think) NetDoc 'Hell' is the absence of God.:)
     
  3. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    You surely agree that the Bible says that there will be a Last Judgement don't you? You would agree, would you not, that the Bible talks of a general resurrection, reward for those who are faithful and punishment for those who are not? What do you make of the lake of fire? You aren't seriously suggesting that there is no mention of the possibility of ending up in eternal torment in the Bible are you? If so, I would suggest you take some time to actually read it.

    Now if you mean that at this moment there is no hell, then I would agree with you. There is nobody languishing in hell now, but hell will (actually may - if God gets His will all will be saved) come into existence at the Last Judgement when all will meet their God. But then, all of this is fairly obviously what I believe if you understood what I wrote about heaven and hell, but you appear not to have done.

    James
     
  4. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    You really didn't read my post. I'm saying that the people who are dead right now are in their grave otherwise known as "hell" (Note this is kind of like getting in the mindset of the Hebrew people back in the day) If you can acheive this then you will see that people are in "hell" (hebrew mind) their "grave" right now. They are in "hell" waiting for the resurrection. It's not eternal and its not painful, the Scriptures compare it to sleep. Now when You state that hell will come into existence at the Judgement you have abandoned the hebrew mindset and their understanding of "hell" and sub it with whatever you have been taught, seen, etc.. What kind of God do you worship that would introduce your concept of "hell" when we all meet him? The Scriptures actually state that on Judgement Day "And death and hell [the grave] were cast into the lake of fire" And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for former things are passed away" This state of painlessness is for the unbelievers, the just and the unjust. None of it dealt with the Church of the Body, the Christians. I do not see where evil men are taken to hell or even cast into the lake of fire. The Scriptures teach that everyone from unbelievers to the unjust will be resurrected and changed and given a new earth where death doesn't exist. In Revelations we can see that people are alive and well on a new earth. There are going to be people on earth in the new earth. Also there are going to be people in heaven in the New Jerusalem. Because how could a person sell his corn, wheat, and onions if there were no one to eat them? It says in the Book of Revelation that they are going to bring in their produce and make offerings unto the heavenly bodies.
     
  5. enton

    enton Member

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    I guess hell shall be unreasonable and unjust to those who don`t acknowledge the value of rationality. Hell is the dump site for those not found in the book of the living. God who has been responsible in purifying man whom he called and chosen is also the God who gives justice to the deprived. That`s true we may just live for a hundred or less years here on earth but as far as righteousness and truth is concerned, we should abide the more livable way, that is, happiness together with the Creator in the eternity that we are facing.
     
  6. jorylore

    jorylore Member

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    I agree. :clap
     
  7. BM5

    BM5 Member

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    ]

    Your question challenges whether God is Just or not. The short answer is that this short life here is the testing ground for us and what we do here determines our fate for Eternity. I would say that that is a pretty serious affair.
     
  8. Bick

    Bick Member

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    My fellow bible students. This question, like many others can be clarified by the use of a complete Bible condordance, the best literal translations, lexicons and other tools .

    I hope all of you have at least a concordance, to check out what I'm saying.

    For clarity: I was taught that the traditional, popular view of "hell" is a place, usually located in the depths of the earth, where disembodied "spirits" of "souls" of the wicked will go upon death, and be in conscious torment. But, I have since learned that this is not in the Scriptures.

    "Hell" is an interpretaion, not a translation of three words in the Greek manuscripts.

    One word is "geenna" which is used 12 times by Jesus in his earthly ministry, and is always rendered "hell". But, a bible dictionary or encyclopedia tells us geenna was outside the walls of Jerusalem where the refuse was dumped and fires were continually kept burning to help purify the air and destroy any refuse. Also, worms were always there to feed on the unburned refuse or bodies.
    So, it was a place on the earth during Jesus time, and, IMO, will be again outside the restored Jerusalem in the Millennial kingdom yet to come. See Isa.66:23-24. Our Lord definitely ties this in in Mark 9:47.

    Another word is "hades". The meaning of this from Greek philosophy is "the unseen world", and there may be other meanings, but we must stay we the Biblical meaning.
    Acts 2:27 "You will not abandon my soul to hades" is quoted from Psa. 16:10 "For thou dost not give me up to Sheol.." We see that hades is the equivalent of sheol. And sheol means the "unseen" or "the grave" depending on context.

    The word occurs 11 times and in the AV is rendered "hell" in all but one time where it is rendered "grave." So, "hades" is not a place of torment. It should be translated as "grave" or "the unseen", depending on context.

    The last word is "tartaroo" which Peter utilized in 2 Pet. 2:4, meaning literally "to thrust down to Tartarus." Tartarus was a Greek word not used any where else in the originals. Homer describes it as subterranean. The verse in the RSV reads thus:
    "For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them down into hell (Tartarus--foot note) and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgement; " The sinning angels are being kept in pits of darkness awaiting their judging. It is not a place of firey torment.

    To conclude this post: The Lord warned of the fires of geenna, because in the millennial kingdom with Christ on the throne, even what a person says or thinks in his heart, may be enough to be judged before the Sanhedren and be killed and his body thrown into geenna.

    There is no "hell" where "disembodied souls" can be punished.

    Bick
     
  9. adilrockstar

    adilrockstar Active Member

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    It is my belief that souls that are sent to Hell will only be there until the final judgment. After the final judgment they will be destroyed. Some poeple will disagree with this, but this is the way I understand scripture.

    God Bless


    Adil
     
  10. Bick

    Bick Member

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    Subject: judgement.
    In my previous post, I only discussed the judgement that could occur to those alive during the millennial kingdom. One may ask, what about the rest of humanity?
    Good question. IMO, there are a number of times of judging:

    1.) The judgment of the cross: In about A.D.30, on Golgotha; The basis is Christ's death; The result is Justification and Conciliation for mankind. Rom.4:25; 5:18,19; 2 Cor.5:21; Heb.1:3; Heb. 2:9.

    2.) The judgment seat (bema) of Christ: After the church/body of believers are assembled with Christ; In front of the bema of Christ in heaven; According to their acts---there will be awards and loss. Rom. 14:10-12; 2 Cor. 5:10.

    3.) The judgment of the house of God: At the coming indignation (tribulation); In Asia minor and Palestine; The Jewish ecclesias---the house of God will be judged during this time of "Jacob's Trouble." The result will be, they will cry out to the LORD and will be delivered by the coming of Christ as King and Priest. Their will be a remnant who receive Him as Messiah. 1 Pet. 4:17. See also Eze. 20:34-38; 22: 19-22; Jer. 30: 4-7; Dan. 12:1.

    4.) The glory throne judgment: At His second coming, Christ as (Son of Man), in power and great glory sits on the throne of HIs glory in Palestine; The living nations will be judged according to how they treated His Brethren, the Jews, during the tribulation; Some nations are "saved", others "chastened". Matt. 25:31-46.

    5.) The great white throne: The time is at least 1000 years after Christ's return; Heaven and earth have gone, so it is some special place; All the dead will be resurrected, except those raised in the first (former) resurrection at the beginning of the millennium (Rev. 20:4,5), and those in the church/body who were already raised and in the heavenlies (1 Cor.15:51-57). The result is that all whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
    Those whose names are in the book of life will be granted life and enjoy the blessings of the New Earth.

    Bick
     
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  11. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    So, do you believe your God is just or not? That is to say, your short answer doesn't seem to me at least to address the question of whether your God is just or not.
     
  12. Bick

    Bick Member

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    Adil's quote
    It is my belief that souls that are sent to Hell will only be there until the final judgment. After the final judgment they will be destroyed. Some poeple will disagree with this, but this is the way I understand scripture.

    Adil, if "souls" are alive after death, then what do these verses mean?

    From a concordance one can trace the verses in the Scriptures. In the OT, "nephesh", and in the NT "psuche" are translated soul.

    "SOUL" is not exclusive to mankind. There are many passages that refer to creatures of the sea, to land animals, and to flying creatures as living souls, and having a soul. Gen. 1:20,21; 1:24; 2:19; 9:3,4; 8-10,12 etc.

    Many times the soul is said to die, be destroyed, taken away:
    Josh. 10:28, 30, 32, 35, 37, 39; 11:11. Jer. 2:34; Eze. 13:19; 22:25-27 and an oft quoted one: Eze. 18:4 "..the soul that sinneth it shall die." And there are many others

    The key is Gen. 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." AV
    NOTICE: A separate soul was not joined to a prepared body. Man became a living soul, a living sentient being, when the spirit of life was breathed into his nostrils.

    Bick
     
  13. adilrockstar

    adilrockstar Active Member

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    Animals have a spirit but do not have a soul.
     
  14. d.

    d. _______

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    if humans have a 'soul', animals also have it. to claim otherwise is to never have been around real animals for any longer period of time, or to be in a state of severe denial. the latter is unfortunately very common.

    'hell'? read or go see Macbeth. shakey knew all about 'hell'.

    if we view hell like that, it's not so much just or unjust as a natural consequence of specific actions.
     
  15. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    Well I have been consigned to the Christian and Muslim Hell Holiday Fests enough to have spare tickets.

    Oddly, I asked some fellow RF members recently to explain to me why Hell(fire) was even a reasonable concept. Strangely, I got several responses although it would appear that reasonable isn't a part of their lexicon. All I got were variations on the "carrot and the stick approach". I truly wish reality was such a black and white affair.
     
  16. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Yet, we ourselves are animals. And in many respects not all that different from other animals, either.
     
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  17. d.

    d. _______

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    in hindsight, when you pointed this out, i regret i used the word 'animals' in my answer. it's so easy to fall into the trap of unconsciously accepting somebodys a priori assumptions in a debate....hmmm.
     
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