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Featured Is government a byproduct of our sinful nature?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Xavier Graham, Mar 27, 2022.

  1. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Why do you equate common ownership of the means of production with lack of freedom?
    In capitalism it's the owners who are in charge, make the decisions and write the rules. In socialism or communism everyone has an equal input.
    This sounds like more freedom, not less.
     
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  2. Sheldon

    Sheldon Veteran Member

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    So why do you consider government (in principle one assumes?) as inherently evil?

    What is it you want to replace government with, how would laws be passed, how would global trade exist, etc etc?
     
  3. Sheldon

    Sheldon Veteran Member

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    You didn't explain how that would function without government?
     
  4. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    That's because it wouldn't.
     
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  5. Xavier Graham

    Xavier Graham Your local anarchist. God is Love is Love is Love

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    Well I gotta do some more reading in order to give a satisfactory answer. It sounds like a good OP to make though so I’ll get back to you. I’ll make an OP about how society can function without a state and tag you in it
     
  6. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    It looks like we're heading there with governments already.
     
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  7. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Anarcho-capitalism is a political philosophy that advocates the elimination of centralized states in favor of a system of private property enforced by private agencies, free markets and the right-libertarian interpretation of self-ownership, which extends the concept to include control of private property as part of the self. In the absence of statute, anarcho-capitalists (or ancaps)[1] hold that society tends to contractually self-regulate and civilize through participation in the free market which they describe as a voluntary society.[2][3][4] In a theoretical anarcho-capitalist society, the system of private property would still exist and be enforced by private defense agencies and/or insurance companies selected by customers which would operate competitively in a market and fulfill the roles of courts and the police.

    The above certainly doesn't describe a society free of laws or governing agencies. This is just a system in which you've replaced representative government with 'defense agencies' and 'insurance companies'. A society WITHOUT laws or government would have no courts to determine laws and would have no police to enforce those laws. If private property rights are determined by 'private agencies' what happens when MY private agency claims land belongs to me, while YOUR private agency claims that land belongs to YOU? Who decides which private agency in correct? Is it just a matter of which agency has the most weapons? Sounds like you're describing a society in which only those people who can afford to hire a standing army will own any land. And if I'm in charge of one of these heavily armed standing armies, why would I bother to hire my services out? With a heavily fortified army I could just take everyone's land as my own.
     
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  8. Sheldon

    Sheldon Veteran Member

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    Two world wars aside, there's probably less violence and death per capita than at any point in human history. I know it looks bleak, but I imagine that has more to do with how quickly and accurately violence and wars are transmitted globally.

    Not that there isn't room for improvement of course, always. I just don't see it coming from ungoverned lawless anarchy, then again in it's in my nature to be sceptical.
     
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  9. Bree

    Bree Active Member

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    Well, thats why they say truth is stranger then fiction ;)

    It may sound convoluted, but if you believe in the rebelllion of a third of the angels, then you have to wonder what all those spirit persons have been up to for the past 6 milleniums.

    There is actually a passage in the bible which gives a glimps of the spirit realm in the book of Daniel and some other books too.

    In Daniel, an Angel comes to him and he tells Daniel why it took him so long to attend.
    “But the prince of the royal realm of Persia was standing in opposition to me for twenty-one days, and, look! Michael, one of the foremost princes, came to help me . . . And now I shall go back to fight with the prince of Persia. When I am going forth, look! also the prince of Greece is coming. However, I shall tell you the things noted down in the writing of truth, and there is no one holding strongly with me in these things but Michael, the prince of you (Isrealite) people.”Daniel 10:13, 20, 21.

    For those who believe the bible, the fallen angels are those who joined Satan in his rebellion against Gods rulership over the earth and mankind. The world we live in today is one that has been devised and manipulated by these ruling anarchists.
     
  10. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    I wasn't talking solely about organized governmental violence. My point is that the alleged ordering and enlightening nature of centralized modern government seems to be a largely informed quality, with its actual results being more along the lines of deeply exploitative hierarchical system that tend to benefit a minority at the cost of the majority's material quality of life, and one that, through its rampant and largely unchecked exploitation of natural resources seems to be headed towards the widespread destruction of human economies and perhaps even a significant portion of human civilization.

    In that light, getting rid of the whole thing doesn't appear nearly as bad.
     
  11. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate this topic as I think that a major theme of the Jewish Bible is that government is a necessary evil but it is also important that a people submit to each other in the form of a covenant which grants the community the power to consequent its members who act too far out of the rules that all are meant to keep the community whole, safe and prosperous. In order to be free, you must agree to give up your personal freedoms. This should be a minimal issue, however, if you are compassionate and fair-minded as this will allow you to realize the rational and moral underpinnings of such a trade of freedom for freedom.

    What is perhaps the folly of government is to worship those in government as God or the proxy parent who is to fix everything wrong with the world. In a democratic society some people even see the government as the cause of evil and not the greed of individuals or wealthy special interests. They ignore the differences of their fellow citizens who create conflicting motivations for those who seek to represent them. This is a seriously dangerous misperception as the democracy is the people. The perception of one's government as the enemy is typically done by those so divorced from the realities of the current Era or those who are wholly unwilling or incapable of taking on the responsibilities of leadership themselves.
     
    #71 sealchan, Mar 28, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2022
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  12. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    The Chinese changed the story of the adulterous woman. After the other men had left, Jesus said, "I am a sinner also, but if we could be free of sin we would not need government," or something like that, and then proceeded to stone her.
     
  13. Policy

    Policy Well-Known Member
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    The story of the adulterous woman was a after-market add on. It was not in the earliest extant manuscripts.
     
  14. Sheldon

    Sheldon Veteran Member

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    I don't know, this is pretty ******* bizarre, and it's fiction.

    It doesn't sound convoluted, it sounds preposterous. What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any of it?

    Well there's a passage in Harry Potter that gives a glimpse of sorcery, that doesn't make it real.

    Why would I believe that, given the level of ignorance and superstition prevalent in the epoch it originated?

    Ah that's much better, if it influences the physical world, it is no longer an unfalsifiable claim, and it's effects could be scrutinised and the data examined by science. So given you've 6 millennium, what have you got?
     
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  15. Sheldon

    Sheldon Veteran Member

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    Well I wouldn't say that was the case in every instance, but yes as I said, always room for improvement.

    No I don't see that at all, I mean what are we replacing government with?
     
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  16. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    It might have something to do with big government, and the fact that many people now trust in vicarious redress of grievances, by a third party, and don't feel compelled to avenge wrongs personally.
     
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  17. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Maybe criminals have motive for anarchy?
     
  18. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    I’m about to blow your mind: you were never meant to have rights. It was always for the 1% folks.
     
  19. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    That is putting it extremely mildly.

    But yes, there is room of improvement, so the question is not whether should, in principle, replace our modern form of government with something better, but how, and with what.
     
  20. GardenLady

    GardenLady Active Member

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    I think one must be fortunate to be able to take that position. Many governments throughout human history have persecuted and oppressed people based on race, sex, religion nationality of birth, and so on. Not caring about government seems like it would be reserved to those not oppressed. Our perhaps you mean something else by caring less and less about government?
     
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