IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Hi Robin, my friend.
As you requested, I have chosen three topics. I hope you will find them suitable. They are important to me, at least. If you want to subsitute a topic, we can do that -- I don't mind switching. I simply enjoy the gentle debating with you.
Once again, for any Christian tuning in, my intent here is not to convert or undermine your faith. This is an exercise of iron sharpening iron.
You asked me if I were a Jew -- you were worried that you had jumped to the wrong conclusion. Yes, I am a Jew who practices Judaism. I don't identify as Reform or Conservative or Orthodox. I'm just a regular Jew, and I feel at home in any synagogue--they all have their gifts For most of my life I was not observant, but in my 40's I became deeply involved with Orthodox Judaism. It has changed me to my very core. I now attend a Reform Temple, which is much more tolerant of my scholarly studies of comparative religion and psychology, as well as my embrasure of science (especially evolution). But I still keep keep strictly kosher and observe Shabbat to almost complete Orthodox standards -- something the Jews at my temple think is ridiculous so I just keep it to myself. I very much miss the warmth and family of the Shabbat tables... sigh* But the Reform have their own areas at which they excel, and I love them to death. They have a heart for the poor and oppressed of the world. We talk about "Tikkun Olam" -- the repair of the world. Our world is a better place because of Reform Jews. I think I have a special place in my heart for Chabad, because Chabad reaches out non-judgmentally to all Jews, and does charitable works. Just today I was reading how Chabad was flying in kosher food to the flood zones in the Carolinas.
I have never lived in Israel, just Southern California, though it is my dream to go to Israel some day. I am an ardent Zionist, but a Zionist with a conscience. By that I mean that I don't think Israel is lily white; some things are very offensive and need to be fixed. But none of that changes the main point that Israel as a Jewish state has the right to exist as a homeland for the Jewish people.
So tell me a bit about yourself as a Christian. It is obvious that you fall within the Protestant Camp (You obviously aren't Catholic or Eastern Orthodox).
I think something needs to be said about the use of the Bible as a source. We both use the Tanakh (what you would call the Old Testament) so there is no problem in using that as a source. The difficulty arises with the use of the Christian Scriptures. As for what exactly is Christian teaching, they are of course THE source. But for the truth? We simply disagree on their worthiness. You accept them as God's word. To me they are no different than the Vedas or the Book of Mormon. Answering my questions on the priesthood by giving me verses from the book of Hebrews has as much sway as a Muslim would who would answer you from the Quran that Jesus didn't die on the cross. You are, of course, free to do so. But I'm just letting you know that you are spinning your wheels if that's the route you choose to take.
[/quote]I think those goals are laudable but in Christianity there is more to the story. It suggests that your high priests were merely place holder for the eternal high priest (Christ) that would come in the fullness of time. Once he came the covenant with Israel was fulfilled and the old priestly order was no longer necessary. I don't think God turned his back on Israel but I think the covenant of the law was fulfilled....
I did not limit Abraham's covenant to just many descendants but yes the covenant (as it was given at the time) is fulfilled. If you look at the primary purpose of the covenant it is easy to see that it has been fulfilled and replaced by a better covenant. Of course Israel has not always held on to their lands God originally gave them, they ceased to even be a nation for quite a while. His descendants through Isaac have been a blessing to all nations. Again this is a good candidate for the 2 or 3 subjects you could pick to study in depth. I just don't want to make those decisions for you.
[/QUOTE]
If you want to "add on" I'm not here to debate that. My problem is with your willingness to say "God has done away with."
Let's set some ground rules of logic here before we begin.
1. If two things are in opposition they cannot both be right. One must be wrong, which means it cannot be God's word, since God's word cannot contradict itself. Agreed? Yes/No
2. If the part that is wrong is the Christian Scriptures, this poses no threat to Judaism, which never accepted the Christian Scriptures as God's word in the first place. Agreed? Yes/No
3. If the part that is wrong is the Tanakh, this still poses a problem for Christianity, which accepts the Tanakh as God's word. For the Christian, the only agreeable outcome is for there to be no opposition. You can't have, i.e. the Torah saying that incest is sin, and the NT saying that incest is okay (it doesn't, this was just a a hypothetical). Agreed? Yes/No
Let's review what the covenant is. Is there any problem with any of the below representing the covenant?
Genesis 12:2-3
“I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.[a]
I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”
No conditions given
Genesis 15
Offspring as numerous as the stars
The Land from the Nile to the Euphrates
No conditions
Genesis 17
Father of many nations
Kings will come from you
Covenant is EVERLASTING v. 7
The land of Canaan as an everlasting possession
Covenant will go through Isaac
Condition: circumcision
Leviticus 26:4
"If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees their fruit."
Numbers 25:13
"and it shall be unto him, and to his seed after him, the covenant of an everlasting priesthood"
Now, is there any problem with the following being the proper representation of Christian teaching?
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." Matthew 5:18
As you requested, I have chosen three topics. I hope you will find them suitable. They are important to me, at least. If you want to subsitute a topic, we can do that -- I don't mind switching. I simply enjoy the gentle debating with you.
Once again, for any Christian tuning in, my intent here is not to convert or undermine your faith. This is an exercise of iron sharpening iron.
You asked me if I were a Jew -- you were worried that you had jumped to the wrong conclusion. Yes, I am a Jew who practices Judaism. I don't identify as Reform or Conservative or Orthodox. I'm just a regular Jew, and I feel at home in any synagogue--they all have their gifts For most of my life I was not observant, but in my 40's I became deeply involved with Orthodox Judaism. It has changed me to my very core. I now attend a Reform Temple, which is much more tolerant of my scholarly studies of comparative religion and psychology, as well as my embrasure of science (especially evolution). But I still keep keep strictly kosher and observe Shabbat to almost complete Orthodox standards -- something the Jews at my temple think is ridiculous so I just keep it to myself. I very much miss the warmth and family of the Shabbat tables... sigh* But the Reform have their own areas at which they excel, and I love them to death. They have a heart for the poor and oppressed of the world. We talk about "Tikkun Olam" -- the repair of the world. Our world is a better place because of Reform Jews. I think I have a special place in my heart for Chabad, because Chabad reaches out non-judgmentally to all Jews, and does charitable works. Just today I was reading how Chabad was flying in kosher food to the flood zones in the Carolinas.
I have never lived in Israel, just Southern California, though it is my dream to go to Israel some day. I am an ardent Zionist, but a Zionist with a conscience. By that I mean that I don't think Israel is lily white; some things are very offensive and need to be fixed. But none of that changes the main point that Israel as a Jewish state has the right to exist as a homeland for the Jewish people.
So tell me a bit about yourself as a Christian. It is obvious that you fall within the Protestant Camp (You obviously aren't Catholic or Eastern Orthodox).
I think something needs to be said about the use of the Bible as a source. We both use the Tanakh (what you would call the Old Testament) so there is no problem in using that as a source. The difficulty arises with the use of the Christian Scriptures. As for what exactly is Christian teaching, they are of course THE source. But for the truth? We simply disagree on their worthiness. You accept them as God's word. To me they are no different than the Vedas or the Book of Mormon. Answering my questions on the priesthood by giving me verses from the book of Hebrews has as much sway as a Muslim would who would answer you from the Quran that Jesus didn't die on the cross. You are, of course, free to do so. But I'm just letting you know that you are spinning your wheels if that's the route you choose to take.
[/quote]I think those goals are laudable but in Christianity there is more to the story. It suggests that your high priests were merely place holder for the eternal high priest (Christ) that would come in the fullness of time. Once he came the covenant with Israel was fulfilled and the old priestly order was no longer necessary. I don't think God turned his back on Israel but I think the covenant of the law was fulfilled....
I did not limit Abraham's covenant to just many descendants but yes the covenant (as it was given at the time) is fulfilled. If you look at the primary purpose of the covenant it is easy to see that it has been fulfilled and replaced by a better covenant. Of course Israel has not always held on to their lands God originally gave them, they ceased to even be a nation for quite a while. His descendants through Isaac have been a blessing to all nations. Again this is a good candidate for the 2 or 3 subjects you could pick to study in depth. I just don't want to make those decisions for you.
[/QUOTE]
If you want to "add on" I'm not here to debate that. My problem is with your willingness to say "God has done away with."
Let's set some ground rules of logic here before we begin.
1. If two things are in opposition they cannot both be right. One must be wrong, which means it cannot be God's word, since God's word cannot contradict itself. Agreed? Yes/No
2. If the part that is wrong is the Christian Scriptures, this poses no threat to Judaism, which never accepted the Christian Scriptures as God's word in the first place. Agreed? Yes/No
3. If the part that is wrong is the Tanakh, this still poses a problem for Christianity, which accepts the Tanakh as God's word. For the Christian, the only agreeable outcome is for there to be no opposition. You can't have, i.e. the Torah saying that incest is sin, and the NT saying that incest is okay (it doesn't, this was just a a hypothetical). Agreed? Yes/No
Let's review what the covenant is. Is there any problem with any of the below representing the covenant?
Genesis 12:2-3
“I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.[a]
I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”
No conditions given
Genesis 15
Offspring as numerous as the stars
The Land from the Nile to the Euphrates
No conditions
Genesis 17
Father of many nations
Kings will come from you
Covenant is EVERLASTING v. 7
The land of Canaan as an everlasting possession
Covenant will go through Isaac
Condition: circumcision
Leviticus 26:4
"If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees their fruit."
Numbers 25:13
"and it shall be unto him, and to his seed after him, the covenant of an everlasting priesthood"
Now, is there any problem with the following being the proper representation of Christian teaching?
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." Matthew 5:18
