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Featured Is God within or was merely in midst of the Pharisees?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by atanu, Apr 5, 2019.

  1. atanu

    atanu Member
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    Luke 17.20-24
    20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, 21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is within' you.”


    As per some Christians, God could not be within the Pharisees (because elsewhere in Bible they were described as impure). And so they translate 'entos' as 'midst', leading to non-sensical the kingdom of God is in the 'midst' of you. This would render the God and His Kingdom temporal.

    What is the general and Christian understanding?


    ...
     
    #1 atanu, Apr 5, 2019
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  2. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    IMO.. the kingdom of God is spiritual.
     
  3. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Here's a definition:

    Kingdom of God, also called Kingdom Of Heaven, in Christianity, the spiritual realm over which God reigns as king, or the fulfillment on Earth of God’s will.

    Kingdom of God | Christianity

    Some Christians believe that it is a literal kingdom with sovereign territory.
     
  4. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    The Kingdom of God is a metaphor for being in harmony with the will of God. In other words, being in the state and condition of divine Love. Living life from within this state, you do no harm to others, nor have any desire to. "Love works no ill". "Love is the fulfillment of the law".

    As far as inside you, vs "amongst you", aside from the language being properly translated as "inside", since it is the same word used when Jesus said, "Make clean the inside of the cup first", and that word "entos" is not translated anywhere else as "among", that latter translation is theologically driven from a radical dualistic perception of God as external to creation. That God could be excluded from anywhere or anything would mean God would be more like a block of swiss cheese with holes in creation where the Presence and Being of God does not exist. That makes God finite. It destroys the infinite nature of God. It makes God an entity, a god, like a Yeti or something.

    When someone says God is inside of them, that is a recognition of the divine nature that exists in all of creation. That we do not act in accord with this, does not mean it does not exist. It simply means we act "as if" it isn't there. We act out of accord with it. In other words, such language is a metaphor, "as if" statements. But the reality is that the very second one move their will back into alignment with the Divine nature, instantly it flows. It doesn't "enter" you, literally, but simply appears to the human mind as having "not been there" before, simply because we denied it. Another way to put it, there is water in the pipes, but none of it comes out of the faucet unless you choose to open it.
     
    #4 Windwalker, Apr 5, 2019
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  5. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    The thing with the pharisees is that not all of them were so bad. There were different Rabbis among the pharisees that taught slightly different styles. Although some were very hostile towards Jesus. Some Rabbis mentioned in the Bible weren't even necessarily against Jesus or His disciples. Nicodemus was a rabbi that secretly believed in Jesus. Gamaliel was one that while he never is said to have believed; he also was not hostile towards the early Christians either.

    In my view; Jesus was speaking of a future event when the kingdom of God would "come" but it would come within people's hearts. (This is fulfilled Acts 2:1-4) So, His words should be kept in context of verse 20. However, you could also say that God's reign is in all hearts that are submitted to God's rule.
     
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  6. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Spiritual awakening, when the Holy Spirit descends upon you, like enlightenment.

    One's thoughts, intuition, motivations are now inspired by God. Any external opposition to this originates from Satan.

    How I saw it as a Christian, how it seems to be implied by other Christians. One reads the Bible, prays for understanding and answers come through spiritual inspiration vs external authority.
     
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  7. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    A sage from the East, Nisargadatta Maharaj put it this way which to me illuminates that Biblical reference. The "real self" is the "kingdom of God" which is within.

    It is the choices that you make that are wrong. To imagine that some little thing - food, sex, power, fame - will make you happy is to deceive yourself. Only something as vast and deep as your real self can make you truly and lastingly happy.
    Nisargadatta: I Am That
     
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  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    First of all, I find there is the teaching of 'Christendom' (so-called Christian but mostly in name only) that puts God's kingdom government inside of a person.
    Second, there is the 'Bible's account' where Jesus is addressing the hate-filled enemy Pharisees at Luke 18:2-21.
    'After' Jesus is finished addressing the Pharisees, that is when Jesus addresses is disciples at Luke 18:22.
    If God's kingdom government was insides those Pharisees they would not be Jesus haters.
    Rather, as Jesus teaches at Mark 7:20-23, what is ' within ' a person the mouth speaks.
    Since the heart within is treacherous then the imperfect heart is a traitor within us and Not God's kingdom - Jeremiah 17:9.
    Plus, please notice what Jesus says to his followers at Luke 19:11-15 that the kingdom of God (Daniel 2:44) would not immediately appear. Jesus as the nobleman would first have to journey far away (Heaven) before later returning.
     
    #8 URAVIP2ME, Apr 5, 2019
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  9. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Heaven of course is a spiritual realm, and God's kingdom is heavenly - Galatians 4:26.
    Before Christ, the ' seat of government ' was earthly Jerusalem.
    Since Christ, the ' seat of government ' is heavenly Jerusalem, Jerusalem above.
    Jesus is ruling King of God's kingdom for a thousand years - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26.
    As King, Jesus will have earthly subjects or citizens as per Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14.
    Thus, the increase of his kingdom government and to peace will have No end according to Isaiah 9:7.
    So, the kingdom of Daniel 2:44 is a real government under Christ that will bring Peace on Earth.
    That is why Jesus instructed at Matthew 24:13-14; Acts 1:8 to proclaim God's kingdom government to the world.
     
  10. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The Kingdom of God is not this world. Matthew 7:21
     
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  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    How true, God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) is Not of this world of badness - 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13.
    This is why I find why Jesus wants us to pray for God's kingdom to come (thy kingdom come)
    Since the kingdom would Not instantly appear according to Jesus at Luke 19:11-15, then it is future.
    Not of this world of badness, but the righteous new world to come as promised at 2 Peter 3:13.
    This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come !
    Come and be King of God's kingdom government for a thousand years - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26.
    Then, Jesus, as King of God's kingdom, will hand back God's kingdom to his God.
    Jesus will have accomplished what is recorded at Revelation 22:2 for the 'healing ' of earth's nations.
    Under Christ, as King of God's Kingdom, mankind will see the return of the " Tree of Life " again on Earth.
    Earth will become a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden was a sample.
    Even 'enemy death' will be No more on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8; Isaiah 35th chapter.
     
  12. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    To place the Kingdom of God as some future "government", entirely misses the Spirit of God in this world. "I have come that they might have life, and more abundantly". That's in this world. It's not some political structure outside ourselves, waiting until we die or some future supernatural apocalyptic event.
     
  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Thank God for YOU.
     
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  14. atanu

    atanu Member
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    Thank you for your view. Honestly, imo, this interpretation does not accord with essential nature of Godhead.

    Mouth speaks only what is in the emotions, in mind. But God is within. Mind does not know it. Heart-mind is treacherous. But what knows that treachery? And as @Windwalker has pointed out spirit of God is now and here -- not absent from any place or any time.
     
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  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Thank you for an interesting question.....it astounds me that those who purport to be "Christian" have no idea what God's Kingdom is....what it is for....and what it will accomplish in the future. To say that the Kingdom of God is within us, is to misconstrue what the Bible teaches about it. Perhaps we should go back to Daniel to find the answer, seeing as how his prophesies pertain to "the time of the end"...the time that we are living in now.

    In Daniel ch 2 we find Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar troubled by a dream. He awakens in a disturbed state but cannot remember what it was about....but as a superstitious Babylonian, he knows that it was important. When none of his magic-practicing priests or wise men could tell him the dream and what it meant, he flew into a rage and threatened to do away with all the wise men of Babylon unless they could tell him what he wanted to know. The wise men were doomed....including Daniel and his companions.

    The story goes, that the dream was from the true God; Daniel's God Yahweh. God reveals the dream and its interpretation to Daniel who in turn tells it to the King.
    Starting in verse 26 of Daniel ch 2 we read....

    "The king said to Daniel. . . .“Can you really make known to me the dream that I saw, and its interpretation?” 27 Daniel replied to the king: “None of the wise men, conjurers, magic-practicing priests, or astrologers are able to tell the king the secret that he is asking. 28 But there is a God in the heavens who is a Revealer of secrets, and he has made known to King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar what is to happen in the final part of the days. This is your dream, and these are the visions of your head as you lay on your bed:"...

    He then goes on to relate what the King dreamed....

    31 "You, O king, were watching, and you saw an immense image. That image, which was huge and extremely bright, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was terrifying. 32 The head of that image was of fine gold, its chest and its arms were of silver, its abdomen and its thighs were of copper, 33 its legs were of iron, and its feet were partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 You looked on until a stone was cut out, not by hands, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and of clay and crushed them. 35 At that time the iron, the clay, the copper, the silver, and the gold were, all together, crushed and became like the chaff from the summer threshing floor, and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a large mountain, and it filled the whole earth."

    Daniel then goes on to tell the King that this image is a representation of all the world powers that would have a connection to God's people in some way, down through history, until the time of the "feet of clay", and the last ruling power of these earthly rulerships before God reintroduced his rulership in the hands of his appointed King Jesus Christ.

    Beginning with Babylon, he sees Medo-Persia as the next ruling power followed by Greece, then Rome, then Britain and lastly the alliance of Britain and America. These are the feet of clay.

    The stone that strikes the image on its feet, destroys all these kingdoms and replaces them as earth's only rulership. So in answer to your OP, the Kingdom of God is an actual government that "crushes" all failed human rulership out of existence and takes their place. It is NOT something "within" us but a real government that will change the way humans are governed forever.

    The prophet Isaiah also prophesied this.....

    Isaiah 9:6-7...

    "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
    And the government will rest on His shoulders;
    And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
    7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
    On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
    To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
    From then on and forevermore.
    The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this
    ."


    Allowing humans to try every kind of rulership that they can dream up has furnished irrefutable evidence that they lack the wisdom to rule themselves independently of their Creator. We are witnessing the death of the last kind of rulership before the end....democracy is in its death throes with almost all democratic nations facing the ire of their people. The weakness of the clay is undermining the strength of the iron. The will of the people is taking the power away from their governments.

    Failed rulerships are all we know, but the Kingdom of God will not fail because it is not rulership by the people, or by the will of Monarchs or despots.....but rule by God, as it was supposed to be at the beginning.

    In Luke 17:21, Jesus was stating that he, as the King of God's Kingdom, was right there "in their midst" but they failed to recognize him.

    This is the way we see the situation....
     
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  16. atanu

    atanu Member
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    So, Lord is not in our midst, as per your variety of Christianity.
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    No, not in the way that Christendom teaches it. Our hearts have to be with Christ as servants of his Father, but that is not what is meant in Luke 17:21. It has nothing to do with the Pharisees' condition of heart according to Jesus. It is them Jesus addressed in that verse.

    In Matthew 15:7-8....Jesus said to them....
    "You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me."

    Both Daniel and Isaiah identify Jesus as the one who will act as "the Prince of Peace" and usher in God's Kingdom, a real government of God to rule redeemed mankind. (Revelation 21:2-4; Daniel 2:44)
     
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  18. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Daniel was NOT alive during the Babylonian exile. Its NOT prophesy. He's telling an historical story... or inventing one for a purpose.

    This, IMO.. is important.

    "The head of that image was of fine gold, its chest and its arms were of silver, its abdomen and its thighs were of copper, 33 its legs were of iron, and its feet were partly of iron and partly of clay."

    Saying "And the government will rest on His shoulders" didn't happen...
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Daniel and his companions were taken into exile in Babylon as youths. The Babylonian Monarch wanted to train them in the ways of Babylonian knowledge and wisdom. He wanted to give them the finest of Babylonian food, but much of it was forbidden to Jews as unclean. To their credit, the boys declined the delicacies of the King and chose instead just fresh vegetables and water. They proved to be healthier on their diet than the Babylonian youths.

    To dismiss Daniel's presence in Babylon is to discredit all of Daniel's writings and his very important prophesies. He was told to seal up his book till "the time of the end" because much of what he wrote would not be understood until then.

    Your assertions, as usual, have no basis in fact, and simply undermine the scriptures as the word of God.
    That is your choice, but it doesn't make your POV valid.

    What didn't happen?

    Daniel 2:44 talking about " the last ruling 'kings' in "the time of the end" (the present world rulers) said....

    "In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever".

    The "Prince of Peace" is the head of that government which has not yet taken control of the earth. He rules his disciples at this time, but those who are deemed to be "goats" will have their accounting before he rules on earth. He will "crush" all human opposers of his incoming government. We demonstrate whose side we are on by our conduct and how closely we obey the teachings of Jesus Christ in "doing the will of the Father". (Matthew 7:21-23)
     
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    God is everywhere, and all human beings contain the divine spark within them.
     
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