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Is God testing us?

proudpagan

Member
Many people in world believe that: God is just, kind, perfect This life is our first and last life God is testing us here and based on the marks we obtain in this test, we will go to either Heaven or Hell.

Well here are a few critical points to make -

1.
Many children die in the wombs. Would they go to Heaven or Hell? Many say they go to Heaven because they never did anything wrong in their lives.

Now my question is “Did they even have an option to do anything wrong?”

Is God not being partial by clearing one candidate even without starting his examination, and another one has to keep giving test after test continuously for 100 years!

2.
Many children die young before they reach maturity. Even the wrong acts they do are not out of willful desire to do something wrong but out of innocence. Would they reach Heaven or Hell?

If they reach Heaven, then why does God not kill everyone in their childhood and ensure a seat in Heaven for them? Is God not being unjust and imperfect?

If they reach Hell, what was their fault?

Say twins were born. Both lived same innocent life for first 3 years. Then one died. He will go straight to Heaven. The other remained innocent for next few years, then got into bad company and died at age of 60. Now he would go to Hell simply because God decided to test him instead of his brother whom God killed as a child..

Is this not God’s crime that he made him live for 60 years and not his brother? Had he killed both at same age of 3 years, both would have gone to Heaven!

So if there is one life and permanent Heaven/Hell, it proves God is unjust.



3.
A person is born insane. His mental faculties have not developed beyond say, age of five. But he lives a long life. Will he go to Hell or Heaven?

Again the same questions as above rise. And result in either God being unjust or concept of one life as test to enter Heaven/Hell being wrong.



4.
Different people are born and nurtured in different religions. But each religion says that only followers of their religion will go to Heaven. Others will go to Hell irrespective of their deeds.

So who will go where?

What is my fault if I was born and brought up in a different religion? Why has God planned my stay in Hell from advance?



5.
People say that children are innocent and hence they will go in Heaven, if they die young. Suppose a person takes this view seriously and resolves to gift heaven to all children. As a noble example of self-sacrifice, he starts killing children. His logic is that, even if I have to burn in Hell forever, I should do my best to ensure that these innocent children get reservation for Paradise!

Thus he is doing a selfless social service. Will he go to Heaven or Hell?

If he goes to Heaven, then God is setting a wrong example for people to follow.

If he goes to Hell, then selflessness is bad.

Further, since no one will actually know who will go where until doomsday comes, it means God has already spread enough confusion to motivate many innocent selfless social workers to follow the path of infanticide and killing!

6.
An unbiased testing environment will demand that
– first the topic be taught to everyone with same facilities and attention under same conditions,
– then they should be evaluated under same testing environment.

Accordingly, God should have first imbibed true religion and its scriptures in hearts of all people, then given them birth in same types of family, allowed them to grow up in same place and in same conditions, and only then should have conducted the test.

But in this world, we find the testing environment to be as diverse as one can possibly imagine. And yet God is claimed to be perfect, just and kind!

Most religious scholars answer this paradox by saying that God knows how to decide the fate by whatever acts people have done in their respective lives based on whatever environment they had to live in. This seems to be like God having something like the Duckworth-Lewis formula which is used to decide winner of an interrupted cricket match.

Now this raises few doubts:

One,
if indeed God is perfect and He has such a great scoring formula, why did he create the entire drama and wasted so many years? He should have used the formula in the very beginning and directly sent everyone to either Heaven or Hell!

Two,
If the formula works on a stillborn child or a fetus, why did he unnecessarily bias against certain folks and had them face troubles of long lives? After all He had created everyone equal to start with!

Three,
The test seems to have binary results. Either you get Heaven or Hell. There seems to be no concept of variation of results as per deeds. Some books do talk of several varieties of Heaven, but these merely increase a binary solution to a finite number solution (Instead of one Heaven and one Hell, there are now say 10 Heavens and 10 Hells). But still there is no continuous gradation. It is like a continuous function equation is giving a non-zero discrete answer, which is mathematically improbable.

7.
People seem to be retaining their youthful bodies in Heaven. Now will they be able to change their looks if they want to? What about children and fetus who go to Heaven? Will they go as adults? Will they receive a training in the language which is supposed to be the language of Heaven? If indeed so, why did God not make the same language as that of Heaven the lingua-franca on earth also?

8.
People say that God forgives the sins of one who accepts the true path of God! 

This means that regardless of whatever you have done, if finally you say sorry, you will go scot-free in Heaven! 

And if you have been a devout believer but at last moment you say, “I refuse to believe”, he will give you ticket to Hell.

This raises further doubts:

One,
Does it not render the entire life and all its multi-dimensionality and complexity wasteful? The entire life, its efforts, its studies all go for a toss, and what remains is a final yes or no. Is this not against nature?

We all know anger is bad. But still we succumb to anger at times, due to limits of our understanding and our neural programming.

So if someone has been a believer throughout but out of confusion, in last few days of his life, became an apostate, why should he be punished so severely?

And another one, who was apostate forever, why should he be rewarded Heaven despite all the nonsense he thought and did for decades?

No decision is without confusion. The only way to take a right decision without confusion is to know everything and be able to analyze everything. This is impossible for any human. Thus no decision of human can be considered reliable and final.

Thus regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees with message of God, the decision is full of confusion and based on extremely limited knowledge.

Is God not crazy then to curse one to Hell and another one to Heaven forever, based on a momentary decision which was taken out of ignorance?

Is God not unjust to have designed such a faulty testing mechanism that relies on ignorance of people which will decide the fate of all souls forever?


9.
Heaven and Hell seem to be permanent. It will continue forever, as per these religions. Now if that be so, God’s injustice becomes even more prominent in light of above points.

Based on one single test, God put certain people directly in Heaven without testing them at all! Others he tested for so many years. Some he gave birth in homes of Apostates.

Is this not gravest cheating?

God is the most unjust and biggest cheater in these stories of there being one single exam and Heaven/Hell forever be true.

A corollary:
What would happen if people start fighting or cheating or adultery in Heaven? Will they be shifted to Hell? Or will they be permitted to do whatever they want and yet remain in Heaven?

10.
Recently there was news that a 2 month old baby was raped.

Now who is being tested? The victim or the rapist?

If its test of victim, is it in a position to respond?

If its test of the rapist, why the hell did God make the poor little baby as a scapegoat?

God seems nothing more than a crazy, stupid, psychopathic dictator if these stories be true.

11.
Almost all books of Eastern philosophies refute the concept of one birth. They believe in life being a continuous cycle not interrupted by death. Its broadly termed the Theory of Karma.

Now if this were not true, why did God confuse minds of people who were born in Eastern part of the globe, from very childhood.

God has done great miracles in past including burning entire towns and villages, and giving birth to Jesus without need of a human father. If He can do so much, why did he not burn these books of East forever? After all He himself laid the criteria that those who refuse to believe in Jesus or Muhammad will go to Hell! Ideally he should have stopped the creation of these Eastern books in the first place!

12.

What about terrorists who were brainwashed from very childhood to do Jehad? They were simply brainwashed by fanatics to take up arms to seek God!

13.

If God is just and kind, why does He demand belief in things we can neither see, hear, analyze or feel, for booking our permanent future?

Neither we see God, nor see Him doing the kind of miracles, nor we witness any special divine people around, nor we have seen even trailer of Heaven/ Hell.

Yet belief in each of these is necessary to book a seat in Heaven!

And if we do not, we are doomed to Hell forever!

On top of it, God gave us the intelligence to be able to test what is fraud and what is right. In this world, we respect those people more who have more of this intelligence.

But in God’s kingdom, this intelligence is the greatest cause of sin.

Only the blinds will enter the Heaven. Rest shall burn in Hell!

The God’s world is indeed very confusing.

God must be crazy!
 

proudpagan

Member
New I wonder how many bullets I need to put in him before he dies? I would like to test that. lets test God shall we?

Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it. Malachi 2:3
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
1.
Many children die in the wombs. Would they go to Heaven or Hell? Many say they go to Heaven because they never did anything wrong in their lives.

Now my question is “Did they even have an option to do anything wrong?”

Is God not being partial by clearing one candidate even without starting his examination, and another one has to keep giving test after test continuously for 100 years!
Your concept of Heaven and Hell are too simple. Heaven is where you come from. Hell is where some people needed to pass through to get back. The purpose of the test is to raise your source to a position closer to G-d. Dying without the option to sin just means you're back at your starting point.

2.
Many children die young before they reach maturity. Even the wrong acts they do are not out of willful desire to do something wrong but out of innocence. Would they reach Heaven or Hell?

If they reach Heaven, then why does God not kill everyone in their childhood and ensure a seat in Heaven for them? Is God not being unjust and imperfect?

If they reach Hell, what was their fault?

Say twins were born. Both lived same innocent life for first 3 years. Then one died. He will go straight to Heaven. The other remained innocent for next few years, then got into bad company and died at age of 60. Now he would go to Hell simply because God decided to test him instead of his brother whom God killed as a child..

Is this not God’s crime that he made him live for 60 years and not his brother? Had he killed both at same age of 3 years, both would have gone to Heaven!

So if there is one life and permanent Heaven/Hell, it proves God is unjust.
Because that would defeat the possibility of raising one's source.


A person is born insane. His mental faculties have not developed beyond say, age of five. But he lives a long life. Will he go to Hell or Heaven?

Again the same questions as above rise. And result in either God being unjust or concept of one life as test to enter Heaven/Hell being wrong.
He will be elevated because he could do no wrong, but he [likely] went through suffering.

4.
Different people are born and nurtured in different religions. But each religion says that only followers of their religion will go to Heaven. Others will go to Hell irrespective of their deeds.

So who will go where?

What is my fault if I was born and brought up in a different religion? Why has God planned my stay in Hell from advance?
You don't go to Hell irrespective of your deeds. It's your deeds that get you into Hell.

5.
People say that children are innocent and hence they will go in Heaven, if they die young. Suppose a person takes this view seriously and resolves to gift heaven to all children. As a noble example of self-sacrifice, he starts killing children. His logic is that, even if I have to burn in Hell forever, I should do my best to ensure that these innocent children get reservation for Paradise!

Thus he is doing a selfless social service. Will he go to Heaven or Hell?

If he goes to Heaven, then God is setting a wrong example for people to follow.

If he goes to Hell, then selflessness is bad.

Further, since no one will actually know who will go where until doomsday comes, it means God has already spread enough confusion to motivate many innocent selfless social workers to follow the path of infanticide and killing!
The correct conclusion is that selflessness is not a positive expression of the trait when it transgresses G-d's commandment. There are no objectively positive traits, any trait can be used for good or bad.

6.
An unbiased testing environment will demand that
– first the topic be taught to everyone with same facilities and attention under same conditions,
– then they should be evaluated under same testing environment.

Accordingly, God should have first imbibed true religion and its scriptures in hearts of all people, then given them birth in same types of family, allowed them to grow up in same place and in same conditions, and only then should have conducted the test.
Unbiased testing also requires that an identical test be used for two identical things.
People are different, so there tests are different.

7.
People seem to be retaining their youthful bodies in Heaven. Now will they be able to change their looks if they want to? What about children and fetus who go to Heaven? Will they go as adults? Will they receive a training in the language which is supposed to be the language of Heaven? If indeed so, why did God not make the same language as that of Heaven the lingua-franca on earth also?
Said who?

8.
People say that God forgives the sins of one who accepts the true path of God! 

This means that regardless of whatever you have done, if finally you say sorry, you will go scot-free in Heaven! 

And if you have been a devout believer but at last moment you say, “I refuse to believe”, he will give you ticket to Hell.

This raises further doubts:

One,
Does it not render the entire life and all its multi-dimensionality and complexity wasteful? The entire life, its efforts, its studies all go for a toss, and what remains is a final yes or no. Is this not against nature?

We all know anger is bad. But still we succumb to anger at times, due to limits of our understanding and our neural programming.

So if someone has been a believer throughout but out of confusion, in last few days of his life, became an apostate, why should he be punished so severely?

And another one, who was apostate forever, why should he be rewarded Heaven despite all the nonsense he thought and did for decades?

No decision is without confusion. The only way to take a right decision without confusion is to know everything and be able to analyze everything. This is impossible for any human. Thus no decision of human can be considered reliable and final.

Thus regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees with message of God, the decision is full of confusion and based on extremely limited knowledge.

Is God not crazy then to curse one to Hell and another one to Heaven forever, based on a momentary decision which was taken out of ignorance?

Is God not unjust to have designed such a faulty testing mechanism that relies on ignorance of people which will decide the fate of all souls forever?
Said who?

9.
Heaven and Hell seem to be permanent. It will continue forever, as per these religions. Now if that be so, God’s injustice becomes even more prominent in light of above points.

Based on one single test, God put certain people directly in Heaven without testing them at all! Others he tested for so many years. Some he gave birth in homes of Apostates.

Is this not gravest cheating?

God is the most unjust and biggest cheater in these stories of there being one single exam and Heaven/Hell forever be true.
Some parts of Heaven are, Hell is not.

A corollary:
What would happen if people start fighting or cheating or adultery in Heaven? Will they be shifted to Hell? Or will they be permitted to do whatever they want and yet remain in Heaven?
There is no free will in Heaven.

10.
Recently there was news that a 2 month old baby was raped.

Now who is being tested? The victim or the rapist?

If its test of victim, is it in a position to respond?

If its test of the rapist, why the hell did God make the poor little baby as a scapegoat?

God seems nothing more than a crazy, stupid, psychopathic dictator if these stories be true.
We can't say for sure that the rapist is being tested, because psychologically he may already be at a point where it's past his ability to chose other than what he did. If it was, then he wasn't tested now, his test already passed when he consistently chose wrongly so as to position himself in a psychological place where he no longer has choice about this issue and here G-d is helping him get a worse position in Hell. If it is still a choice for him, then he is being tested.

The victim may either/and be receiving punishment for a sin in a previous life, or be getting set up for some future test.

There are too many variables and its not possible to know for sure.

Almost all books of Eastern philosophies refute the concept of one birth. They believe in life being a continuous cycle not interrupted by death. Its broadly termed the Theory of Karma.

Now if this were not true, why did God confuse minds of people who were born in Eastern part of the globe, from very childhood.

God has done great miracles in past including burning entire towns and villages, and giving birth to Jesus without need of a human father. If He can do so much, why did he not burn these books of East forever? After all He himself laid the criteria that those who refuse to believe in Jesus or Muhammad will go to Hell! Ideally he should have stopped the creation of these Eastern books in the first place!
You've answered this question above with the above concept of testing.

What about terrorists who were brainwashed from very childhood to do Jehad? They were simply brainwashed by fanatics to take up arms to seek God!
Your concept of free-will is too broad. The tests are only within the realm of our ability to chose. For a jihadist who was brainwashed into losing his ability to choose to kill or not, his test might only be whether he will also kill that extra child, or whether he'll kill someone cleanly or cause extra suffering. Everything is relative.

13.

If God is just and kind, why does He demand belief in things we can neither see, hear, analyze or feel, for booking our permanent future?

Neither we see God, nor see Him doing the kind of miracles, nor we witness any special divine people around, nor we have seen even trailer of Heaven/ Hell.

Yet belief in each of these is necessary to book a seat in Heaven!

And if we do not, we are doomed to Hell forever!
From you, he does not.

On top of it, God gave us the intelligence to be able to test what is fraud and what is right. In this world, we respect those people more who have more of this intelligence.

But in God’s kingdom, this intelligence is the greatest cause of sin.

Only the blinds will enter the Heaven. Rest shall burn in Hell!

The God’s world is indeed very confusing.
This is wrong.
Scientists have not ruled out the existence of G-d.
An individual is not bound to the mentality of the community.
I don't know what blind entering Heaven is about.
Hell is not the only other option.
Most of it seems pretty clear cut to me.
 

proudpagan

Member
Your concept of Heaven and Hell are too simple. Heaven is where you come from. Hell is where some people needed to pass through to get back. The purpose of the test is to raise your source to a position closer to G-d. Dying without the option to sin just means you're back at your starting point.

How do you know we come from Heaven ? I am not athiest btw .



You don't go to Hell irrespective of your deeds. It's your deeds that get you into Hell.

Deeds like disbelief in God ?

The correct conclusion is that selflessness is not a positive expression of the trait when it transgresses G-d's commandment. There are no objectively positive traits, any trait can be used for good or bad.

of a jealous God ...

Unbiased testing also requires that an identical test be used for two identical things.
People are different, so there tests are different.

Different as in ?

Said who?

My comment

Said who?

My comment

Some parts of Heaven are, Hell is not.

Citation

There is no free will in Heaven.

kek

The victim may either/and be receiving punishment for a sin in a previous life

you believe in re incarnation ?


This is wrong.
Scientists have not ruled out the existence of G-d.
An individual is not bound to the mentality of the community.
I don't know what blind entering Heaven is about.
Hell is not the only other option.
Most of it seems pretty clear cut to me.

Jews are chosen people of God as per Torah , My entire post was basically intended for christians and moslems
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
How do you know we come from Heaven ? I am not athiest btw .
Because that's what Judaism teaches.

Deeds like disbelief in God ?
Belief is not a deed. But this is not a zero-sum game. It's not either Heaven or Hell. Most people go to both.

of a jealous God ...
Zealous...

Different as in ?
You need me to explain to you how people are different from each other?

My comment

My comment
I see.

My comment

Nevertheless.

you believe in re incarnation ?
I believe in Judaism. Judaism teaches about different forms of re-incarnation and transmigration of souls.

Jews are chosen people of God as per Torah , My entire post was basically intended for christians and moslems
This is not a Christian and Muslim forum. There are people from a number of faiths here. If you intend to single out one or two religions to question, you should indicate that in your OP, title or both.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Many people in world believe that: God is just, ki
nd, perfect This life is our first and last life God is testing us here and based on the marks we obtain in this test, we will go to either Heaven or Hell.

This is your foundational premise. I think the foundational premise must first be looked at since from this point it is all based on that premise.

1) Yes, I believe (as all the people that I hang around with) that God is just and perfect
2) Yes, this is our fist and last life

BUT

3) God is not testing us here and based on our marks we will go to either Heaven or Hell


If I am correct, then the rest of your points become quite mute.

/QUOTE]
Well here are a few critical points to make -

1.
Many children die in the wombs. Would they go to Heaven or Hell? Many say they go to Heaven because they never did anything wrong in their lives.

Now my question is “Did they even have an option to do anything wrong?”

Is God not being partial by clearing one candidate even without starting his examination, and another one has to keep giving test after test continuously for 100 years!

innocent selfless social workers to follow the path of infanticide and killing!
[/QUOTE]
1) Because of point #3 your question become quite irrelevant for it would then violate the "just" position of God. Why would He send a person to Hell if they haven't done anything wrong?
2) Is it partiality or impartiality for one to take into account all variables? So a person who robs a bank for 100 years should be judged the same as one who never robbed a bank or robbed one for the first time or any of the multiple variables in between?

So, you see how just addressing the foundational point changes all that you have propositioned.
 

proudpagan

Member
Zealous...
Deuteronomy 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

You need me to explain to you how people are different from each other?

Culturally

This is not a Christian and Muslim forum. There are people from a number of faiths here. If you intend to single out one or two religions to question, you should indicate that in your OP, title or both.

Yeah okk its fine uwu
 

proudpagan

Member
If I am correct, then the rest of your points become quite mute.

Abrahamic God is not just nor he is perfect.
ecause of point #3 your question become quite irrelevant for it would then violate the "just" position of God. Why would He send a person to Hell if they haven't done anything wrong?
No matter how good human you are . YOu are still going to Hell for disbelief.

Is it partiality or impartiality for one to take into account all variables? So a person who robs a bank for 100 years should be judged the same as one who never robbed a bank or robbed one for the first time or any of the multiple variables in between?

I guess I have answered it . You rape and accept christ you are going to heaven . YOu die saving the dignity of a woman but dont accept christ . you are going to Hell uwu
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Abrahamic God is not just nor he is perfect.
I accept the fact that you have every right to have a viewpoint. I disagree, of course.

No matter how good human you are . YOu are still going to Hell for disbelief.

I guess I have answered it . You rape and accept christ you are going to heaven . YOu die saving the dignity of a woman but dont accept christ . you are going to Hell uwu
It always amazes me how we, as humans, decide who goes to Heaven and who doesn't when it is in God's power to decide and in His power only.

I'm just glad that God doesn't reward all of us according do our deeds because then we would have to weigh the good as well as the bad.

Is there anything that you have done wrong that you are glad you didn't pay the consequences?
 

proudpagan

Member
I accept the fact that you have every right to have a viewpoint. I disagree, of course.

Abrahamic God swears to himself , curses , kills , blood sacrifice the list goes endless . Its all in the texts . Read it .
It always amazes me how we, as humans, decide who goes to Heaven and who doesn't when it is in God's power to decide and in His power only.

I'm just glad that God doesn't reward all of us according do our deeds because then we would have to weigh the good as well as the bad.

Is there anything that you have done wrong that you are glad you didn't pay the consequences?
Humanity predates Judaism Christianity and Islam uwu
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Nah. No need to use that much effort. I hear just forbidding schools to lead prayer keeps God out. Our legislatures have WAY more power than I gave them credit for.
 
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