Is God Pantheistic or Panentheistic?

[von bek]

According to the Bhagavad Gita (chapter 10) God is the universe and creation, and exists outside of it. He is immanent and transcendent. He is a pan(en)theistic God. This is the Vaishnava belief. I dare say it's the Shaiva belief also, because Shiva is all and in all. Probably the Shakta belief too.

As I understand it, yes, She is both immanent and transcendent.

 

[Jumi]

One of the few versions of the 'God' concept that makes sense to me is the one that identifies God as either nature, the laws of nature, or the dynamics of nature.

I think that's one view many scientists took in the past. Where science is "asking questions of God" which would be more about our ability to formulate a valid question and then trying to understand nature's answer.

Curious about what you think about God as background or field in which this all happens? I believe some equate this background with the "void", aether(dismissed later ofc) or more recently Higg's boson.

 

[Etritonakin]

One of the few versions of the 'God' concept that makes sense to me is the one that identifies God as either nature, the laws of nature, or the dynamics of nature.

Creation must be based on that which is of a specific nature.
Creativity does not change the most basic nature of "nature" -but it allows for configurations which could not exist in the absence of creativity.
For creativity to exist, it must be composed of that which it did not create.

If God is eternal, he would be "made of" that which he could not have created -the most basic nature of which he could not have created.

God being eternal also does not necessarily equate to God being eternally of the same configuration.

If man is made in the image of God, then our example shows that we are both made of "nature", and can increasingly decide the course of nature.
Perhaps that is the case with God on an all-inclusive scale.

 

[David T]

Yes, the panentheist God is outside of the measurable existence at least with any instruments we've developed. Get a background noise from something that's always omnipresent... not simple.

Perhaps AI, development in big data and machine learning can prove otherwise but so far it's not where I'd pin my hopes on it.


That's what the words seem to say, at least. Yet the panentheistic God is both everywhere and "nowhere". I doubt it makes much sense to other types of theists or atheists.

Jumi, in regards to religious experiences isn't there a lot of categorization going on?

It's a bit like I experience, I write or speak, then that is taken, and categorized into a set. A lot of times it seems to me, that I read something and its categorized into "They believe xyz."

I find Kierkegaards comment about himself "to label me is to negate me" a curious quote. I have never heard of a Kierkegaard scholar not once not say, "Soren Kierkegaard was an existentialist" it's as if that quote is invisible.

 

[Jumi]

Jumi, in regards to religious experiences isn't there a lot of categorization going on?

It's a bit like I experience, I write or speak, then that is taken, and categorized into a set. A lot of times it seems to me, that I read something and its categorized into "They believe xyz."

I find Kierkegaards comment about himself "to label me is to negate me" a curious quote. I have never heard of a Kierkegaard scholar not once not say, "Soren Kierkegaard was an existentialist" it's as if that quote is invisible.

You are right, though I haven't read Kierkegaard myself I did hear quite a bit from a friend who was into it long ago.

Talk and categories is of course for forums and connecting with other people. When I meditate or go out into the forest or watch the clouds, I don't think any of this. It's like I'm like a kid again.

 

[David T]

You are right, though I haven't read Kierkegaard myself I did hear quite a bit from a friend who was into it long ago.

Talk and categories is of course for forums and connecting with other people. When I meditate or go out into the forest or watch the clouds, I don't think any of this. It's like I'm like a kid again.

And you just gave the perfect description.


But it is then turned into:
Jumi believes that in the forest he becomes a kid and thus kidism. Now there is kidism and there is kidenism radically different.".

Personally I am right there with Ya, the "grown up" world is mad!!! You Weirdo.... the highest compliment I know.

 

[Polymath257]

I think that's one view many scientists took in the past. Where science is "asking questions of God" which would be more about our ability to formulate a valid question and then trying to understand nature's answer.

Curious about what you think about God as background or field in which this all happens? I believe some equate this background with the "void", aether(dismissed later ofc) or more recently Higg's boson.

I'm not so thrilled with the idea of identifying God with any particular field or background. For one thing, that method doesn't give God a 'consciousness' in any real sense and thereby brings into question the identification.

Instead, I would identify the 'body of God' with the physical universe (thrughout space and time) and the 'Mind of God' with the *interactions* between things in the universe.o

In order to exist, things have to interact with other things. It is that action by which they 'announce their presence' and thereby their existence. But this interaction can be interpreted as a form of awareness: each thing is aware of those other things that interact with it. The sum of all the interactions is then a 'type' of consciousness. It is this that can be identified with the 'Mind of God'.

In this way, science studies both the mind and body of God: the objects as well as their dynamics.

This is a viewpoint I am not convinced completely works, but I've been playing with it recently. Take it as you will.

 

[Jumi]

Personally I am right there with Ya, the "grown up" world is mad!!! You Weirdo.... the highest compliment I know.

I definitely admit to weirdness, well not much I can do about it even if I wanted to. Good thing I've learned to balance the urban with the wild though...

 

[Jumi]

I'm not so thrilled with the idea of identifying God with any particular field or background. For one thing, that method doesn't give God a 'consciousness' in any real sense and thereby brings into question the identification.

Do you think it's a "reasonable" view though? I kind of wanted to know your take on it since your understanding of science is deeper than mine. I've watched many discussions on it, by more science minded religionists. I have some sympathy to that view though I think it's misplaced.

Instead, I would identify the 'body of God' with the physical universe (thrughout space and time) and the 'Mind of God' with the *interactions* between things in the universe.o

In order to exist, things have to interact with other things. It is that action by which they 'announce their presence' and thereby their existence. But this interaction can be interpreted as a form of awareness: each thing is aware of those other things that interact with it. The sum of all the interactions is then a 'type' of consciousness. It is this that can be identified with the 'Mind of God'.

In this way, science studies both the mind and body of God: the objects as well as their dynamics.

This is a viewpoint I am not convinced completely works, but I've been playing with it recently. Take it as you will.

I was having a bit similar thoughts when I was into scientific pantheism in not so distant past. I think it's a good bridge of communication between secular minded people who can't believe in any Gods of traditions and theists.

 

[David T]

I definitely admit to weirdness, well not much I can do about it even if I wanted to. Good thing I've learned to balance the urban with the wild though...

Well this dude below is highly regarded. He got a job working in Yosemite in a mill. Now this was before it was a park. People would come there just to meet him. Now he was called eccentric, that was a nice way of saying "weirdo". Even.the president came.And visited him, they ditched the secret service for 3 days. Even in those days losing the president was a big deal. Why who knows what this weirdo had done with the president. After the visit the president went back to DC and we now have our national parks all because some.strange eccentric FOREST lover type..his name, John muir.....

I call him the patron saint of the forests trees mountains weirdos. Lol... he should be a saint in the churches but I reckon that's a few hundred years from Now. Here he is in a church service, listening to the sermon!!!!

 

[Jumi]

Well this dude below is highly regarded. He got a job working in Yosemite in a mill. Now this was before it was a park. People would come there just to meet him. Now he was called eccentric, that was a nice way of saying "weirdo". Even.the president came.And visited him, they ditched the secret service for 3 days. Even in those days losing the president was a big deal. Why who knows what this weirdo had done with the president. After the visit the president went back to DC and we now have our national parks all because some.strange eccentric FOREST lover type..his name, John muir.....

Sounds like he was a rare man to be able to share it with so many at a time when people had lost their root and feel for the land.

I call him the patron saint of the forests trees mountains weirdos. Lol... he should be a saint in the churches but I reckon that's a few hundred years from Now. Here he is in a church service, listening to the sermon!!!!

I like to say nature is my Church. When I say mine, it's not ownership, but like home.. they sure have the best services. You could say half of my genes comes form folks who lived deep in the forest in touch with the land. It's never too late to join that "church", all folks welcome.

 

[paarsurrey]

Is God Pantheistic or Panentheistic?

Or is the universe created apart from god?

pan·the·ism
pantheism, noun, a doctrine that identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God.
Google

panentheism-(meaning "all-in-God", from the Ancient Greek πᾶν pân, "all", ἐν en, "in" and Θεός Theós, "God")[1] is the belief that the divine pervades and interpenetrates every part of the universe and also extends beyond time and space.
Panentheism - Wikipedia

I believe that G-d is one and is independent whether universe exists or does not exist. The universe exists only because G-d has desired so that it should exists and won't exist if He so desires. G-d is neither physical nor a spirit, He is only attributive and His attributes are reflected in the universe in absolutes.
Regards

 

[osgart]

From eternity past does the universe have enough of its own momentum to become what it is today?, is the universe self sufficient of its own causes?

And before the universe, are those things of the same ilk as the universe, and do those things have self sufficiency?

I can think of no reason to believe that our existence is self sufficient, nor anything like it self sufficient in its causes and effects. Especially since we are the crescendo of the universe's order.

I cant imagine an infinite regression of causes has enough juice and firepower to create us.

Sooner or later a panentheistic existence must exist. That existence must be self sustaining and uncaused. And it must be superior to the stuff we exist in.

This panentheistic existence must be infinite and dwarfs our existence.

It must be theistic because only life can beget life.

But i wonder, that this God or society of Gods has its limits, vulnerabilities, and flaws.

I dont think we are created, but perhaps generated from a life force. The life force must defy materialism, and physicalism. Our God is apart of this life force, and so are we.

Until that is disproven i'll will always wonder about its reality.

 

[Zindik]

Muslim Tsalaf actually saying "Laa illaa Aallah SWT," .

That's that .

 

[David T]

Sounds like he was a rare man to be able to share it with so many at a time when people had lost their root and feel for the land.


I like to say nature is my Church. When I say mine, it's not ownership, but like home.. they sure have the best services. You could say half of my genes comes form folks who lived deep in the forest in touch with the land. It's never too late to join that "church", all folks welcome.

St Hildegard von debingen said "we cannot live in an interpreted world, for an interpreted world is not home"... I would say you are living what she, said.

 

[Segev Moran]

Or is the universe created apart from god?

Both are correct

Imagine god as a tree.

The concept of the tree is a whole.

now imagine the universe as branches.

each branch is on its own, but the collection of branches is also a part of the tree.

Same goes for the leaves that can represent humans on earth for example.

So each leaf has its own entity, but it is a part of a whole that is a branch, which in turn is part of a whole that is a tree...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Or is the universe created apart from god?

All 3. Depends which god you're talking about. People use "God" to refer to many different gods.

 

[Jumi]

St Hildegard von debingen said "we cannot live in an interpreted world, for an interpreted world is not home"... I would say you are living what she, said.

We're all living in a world outside interpretation, though it's building up walls of interpretation and counter-interpretation so that our minds don't see the world works well.

 

[David T]

We're all living in a world outside interpretation, though it's building up walls of interpretation and counter-interpretation so that our minds don't see the world works well.

Yes.... this medium to spell casts some interesting spells up on us. That's why I have retreated into music actually. It just captures a lot more personally for me than writing itself does. Virtually all of the "bible interpretations " are rather fancifully bad. Musically.they are horrid!!!

Music Is probably the oldest art and the last to be an orally transmitted art before succumbing to recording. Yes music was written but it always has needed to be played and that's different than notes on a page. recording in a sense.captured the music in a way that writing captured words.

I have talked.to BSM1 frofrostbite here about music he has a fantastic group btw. I very much appreciate their music.

 

[Jumi]

Yes.... this medium to spell casts some interesting spells up on us. That's why I have retreated into music actually. It just captures a lot more personally for me than writing itself does. Virtually all of the "bible interpretations " are rather fancifully bad. Musically.they are horrid!!!

I will agree with you that most of the time that's the case. Not a big fan of that "instrument." If I say that Jesus gets my vote though, but not that angry dollar Jesus, I think you'd agree...

Music Is probably the oldest art and the last to be an orally transmitted art before succumbing to recording. Yes music was written but it always has needed to be played and that's different than notes on a page. recording in a sense.captured the music in a way that writing captured words.

I have talked.to BSM1 frofrostbite here about music he has a fantastic group btw. I very much appreciate their music.

I spent lots of time with music, stopped composing pretty much after I got something on cd. Still have people who wish I got back into it, but now I just listen and enjoy.