1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Is God Pantheistic or Panentheistic?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, May 4, 2018.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    7,426
    Ratings:
    +1,111
    Religion:
    Grace
    Or is the universe created apart from god?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist LGBT Stonewall historic marker

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,802
    Ratings:
    +7,819
    Religion:
    Artist and Healer
    Pantheistic. All is god.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,683
    Ratings:
    +980
    Religion:
    eclectician
    As I understand the words, pantheism says that everything that exists is God
    whereas
    panentheism says that God is outside existence, i.e created existence.

    If God does exist outside existence, that would mean God doesn't exist.
    A good bridge between theists and atheists.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2014
    Messages:
    9,334
    Ratings:
    +5,026
    Religion:
    Secular theist (none)
    Yes, the panentheist God is outside of the measurable existence at least with any instruments we've developed. Get a background noise from something that's always omnipresent... not simple.

    Perhaps AI, development in big data and machine learning can prove otherwise but so far it's not where I'd pin my hopes on it.

    That's what the words seem to say, at least. Yet the panentheistic God is both everywhere and "nowhere". I doubt it makes much sense to other types of theists or atheists.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,683
    Ratings:
    +980
    Religion:
    eclectician
    It's the God in the nowhere bit I meant. Twas a play on words that we use.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. BSM1

    BSM1 Who's a good boy?

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2012
    Messages:
    15,040
    Ratings:
    +6,651
    Religion:
    Buddhistic Panenthetic Jesusonian
    Sorta like having your cake and eating it, too.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    26,617
    Ratings:
    +10,769
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    IMO, it's impossible to know the answer, so why should I attempt an answer?
     
  8. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    8,880
    Ratings:
    +8,188
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    One of the few versions of the 'God' concept that makes sense to me is the one that identifies God as either nature, the laws of nature, or the dynamics of nature.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2016
    Messages:
    2,131
    Ratings:
    +509
    Religion:
    pagan
    definitions would be nice. i don't know what these two are.
     
  10. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Messages:
    18,534
    Ratings:
    +6,705
    Religion:
    Hinduism, Vaishnava
    According to the Bhagavad Gita (chapter 10) God is the universe and creation, and exists outside of it. He is immanent and transcendent. He is a pan(en)theistic God. This is the Vaishnava belief. I dare say it's the Shaiva belief also, because Shiva is all and in all. Probably the Shakta belief too.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    7,426
    Ratings:
    +1,111
    Religion:
    Grace
    i understand it as god transcends creation, or created/formed things.thus god is mutable, an action, and formless. all forms arise from it but that which arises takes it's antecedent too.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    7,426
    Ratings:
    +1,111
    Religion:
    Grace
    it reflects how the self recognized god.

    is god absent? present? present where?

    is god a collective consciousness, swarm intelligence? or is it at odds with it's creation? is it self-realizing? aware of self, or otherness? if otherness then it superior to this otherness? or is this otherness equal to it? can this otherness overcome, control, that which is separate from self?
     
  13. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,683
    Ratings:
    +980
    Religion:
    eclectician
    Very similar to the first sentence in @Jainarayan 's post above(#10).
     
  14. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    7,426
    Ratings:
    +1,111
    Religion:
    Grace
    something can't be immanent and outside.something can be transformed from one form to another but it is always present as the formless

    the paramatman is not exclusively brahma the creator, nor shiva the destroyer, but some form of vishnu transformed too.

    immannent

    if anything the form exists outside, or on the surface, of the formless. like a waves on the ocean, like a cloud in the sky, like a thought in the mind.
     
    #14 Fool, May 4, 2018
    Last edited: May 4, 2018
  15. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    13,471
    Ratings:
    +4,611
    Religion:
    Advaita and Spiritualist and Pantheist
    Is God Pantheistic or Panentheistic?

    I am voting 'Pantheistic' because that is what I put in my Religion: description above:) I doubled-checked that there wasn't the extra 'en' after the 'pan' in my description.

    But a little more seriously, the Vedic masters and seers I most respect are of the Advaita school which is more pantheistic as I understand it. I am not at a point where I can answer the question from personal experience or that the difference is very important to the average person like myself.
     
  16. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Messages:
    18,534
    Ratings:
    +6,705
    Religion:
    Hinduism, Vaishnava
    Listen up, this is as simple as it gets:
    Water is outside that which it permeates and wets.
    Jainarayan is quite mystical when he takes his percocets. :D


    [​IMG]
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  17. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    26,617
    Ratings:
    +10,769
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    I have a copyright on "I don't know", so any use of that terminology without written authorization from me will be met with a lawsuit that'll sue one's butt off. :mad:
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  18. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    7,426
    Ratings:
    +1,111
    Religion:
    Grace
    self is obviously some aspect of that absolute, of nature.



    Of playing that you weren't god, because the whole nature of the godhead, according to this idea, is to play that he is not. So in this idea then, everybody is fundamentally the ultimate reality, not god in a politically kingly sense, but god in the sense of being the self, the deep-down basic whatever there is. And you are all that, only you are pretending you are not.
     
    #18 Fool, May 4, 2018
    Last edited: May 4, 2018
  19. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    7,426
    Ratings:
    +1,111
    Religion:
    Grace
    thank you

    the water permeates the form and yet the water itself is formless and still surrounds the form.
     
  20. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Messages:
    18,534
    Ratings:
    +6,705
    Religion:
    Hinduism, Vaishnava
    Yes.
     
Loading...