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Is God or Religious Truth Real?

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
I believe people who see another religion as wrong just because it is different are badly mistaken. I do believe however that a lack of a good source does mitigate against the validity of a religion.

That's what has always amazed me.

How easily most people just cave in and blindly believe in the first religion that gets to them and brainwashes them, no matter how flawed it is, without seriously asking for any real proof of their religious claims.
 
your quote:This is what you imagine God is working toward for humanity?
You entirely left out what I wrote leading up to "This is what you imagine God is working toward for humanity?" As I recall what I wrote was in the context of the necessity for society to have laws or rules. I think I got so much on an elementary level I inquired from you whether or not you considered traffic laws are needed such as stopping at stop signs and obeying traffic signals! You never responded to that at all!

your quote: What precisely is the source of your information about “the system God has in place now” and that “it's been in place even before religion existed”?

My Answer: When I became an adult, I realized that so much of religion simply does not add up. I started a journey to Discover the Real truth regardless of what that might be. I was even open to the possibility that God might not exist.
So you never explained what exactly in religion does not add up. Religion involves followers of Founders or Prophets some of who may have lost their way. Covenants Prophets made with their followers could even have been broken to such an extent the original Revelation from God could have been distorted beyond recognition. In those circumstances I can understand how one may conclude ..."that so much of religion simply does not add up."
 
The West had a civilisation before Christianity plunged it into the medieval barbarism from which we took centuries to emerge
I agree and hurriedly got it wrong, at least in part. I would say Medieval barbarism resulted from a heresy in Christianity which caused the disappearance of true Christianity by the fourth century according to what I read in the book entitled "the light shineth in darkness" by Udo Schaefer who is a Baha'i who works as a lawyer in Germany. He explains the demise of true Christianity in the following paragraph:

"This was the 'Fall' of Christianity: that Paul with his 'Gospel', which became the core of Christian dogma formation, conquered the world, while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy, the preservers of the original branded as 'Ebionites'. As Schoeps puts it, the heresy hunters 'accused the Ebionites of a lapse or relapse into Judaism, whereas they were really only the Conservatives who could not go along with the Pauline-cum-Hellenistic elaborations'. Schonfield comes to the same conclusion: 'This Christianity in its teaching about Jesus continued in the tradition it had directly inherited, and could justifiably regard Pauline and catholic Christianity as heretical. It was not, as its opponents alleged, Jewish Christianity which debased the person of Jesus, but the in general which was misled into deifying him.' 'Pauline heresy served as the basis for Christian orthodoxy, and the legitimate Church was outlawed as heretical'. The 'small handful of true Christians' was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century." page 83

On the same page Schaefer then goes on in the beginning of the next paragraph "It is worthy of note that there were striking similarities between this Christianity and Islam. Above all in Christology: in the faith of the original community Jesus was the new Moses, the Son of God as 'testified' by the adoptive act of baptism. This Christology, which corresponds completely to that of the Qur'an, was considered by the Pauline Church, together with obedience to the 'Jewish' law, as characteristic of the Ebionite heresy." page 83

Lastly, I would only mention that it was Islamic Civilization in Moorish Spain which was responsible for stimulating Europe out of its Medieval quagmire. I understood that from reading "Islamic Contributions to Civilization" by Stanwood Cobb who is also a Baha'i. So, really, I would say in many respects Western Civilization is the child of Islamic Civilization rather than it essentially resulting from a Judeo-Christian Heritage. :)
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
You entirely left out what I wrote leading up to "This is what you imagine God is working toward for humanity?" As I recall what I wrote was in the context of the necessity for society to have laws or rules. I think I got so much on an elementary level I inquired from you whether or not you considered traffic laws are needed such as stopping at stop signs and obeying traffic signals! You never responded to that at all!

So you never explained what exactly in religion does not add up. Religion involves followers of Founders or Prophets some of who may have lost their way. Covenants Prophets made with their followers could even have been broken to such an extent the original Revelation from God could have been distorted beyond recognition. In those circumstances I can understand how one may conclude ..."that so much of religion simply does not add up."


If you find that every single thing about your holy book adds up, you accept rather than question.

You want something that doesn't add up? If God knows it all, how could God create someone to go to Hell? Wouldn't that make God a Monster??

A Being capable of creating universes has to be Very Very Smart. Is the system your holy book teaches really Smart or a good way of doing things? It teaches people to value so many petty things. All one has to do is read that holy book to know it does not come from God.

Oh, do not worry about those traffic laws, there will come a day there will no longer be cars.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Can you share more about this? Or have you already in some other thread?

In the future please don't edit out so much of whichever statement of mine you are replying about.

As I had no idea which post of mine you got this from or what the rest of it was about:

"For God has shown me /... /"

Now I went all the way back several pages and found this one that might be where you got it from:

"For God has shown me the separation of the spiritual and physical realms/universes and the purpose of the separation."

If that is the statement you were referring too, yes, I believe I gave a brief outline of it in the forum thread "Exactly what is a soul".
 
If you find that every single thing about your holy book adds up, you accept rather than question.
And in that holy book you refer to so scathingly without even looking promotes the independent investigation of truth. So, no! I first question then accept as you put it, every single thing but only after it all adds up!

You want something that doesn't add up? If God knows it all, how could God create someone to go to Hell? Wouldn't that make God a Monster??
From my Baha'i perspective, as such a principle is recorded in the short obligatory prayer, God created everyone to know and love God.

However, God does not control everyone as though they were puppets on a string! Its called free will to make choices! If you have made personal choices about God for yourself how is that useful or even relevant for all of mankind?

From my perspective as a Baha'i heaven merely signifies closeness to God and hell remoteness from God and such a principle is relevant not only in earthly life but in life after your soul separates from your physical body in an afterlife. So there are degrees of closeness and remoteness and there are degrees of progress for all souls in the afterlife. Nevertheless, missed opportunities in this life cannot be duplicated in an afterlife.

Oh, do not worry about those traffic laws, there will come a day there will no longer be cars.
Well, that is one way to skirt the issue entirely as if a prediction there will some day be no more cars satisfies the question of laws or rules in every other area of life! What about the outlawing of murder? Are societies to wait until everyone duplicates your personal experience before murderers are brought to justice? :eek:
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Is there any reason to believe God is real or that there is validity to religion as a historical process despite there being different religions? My personal response to such a query is that yes, God is real, and that religion as a historical process coming from a real God is real, despite what might seem to be irreconcilable differences among different religions. We expect different conclusions from time to time as a result of scientific inquiry, so why could that not also be true when it comes to religion as a process?

I have concluded that the essence of God is unknowable. However, I have also concluded that God communicates to mankind through a series of divinely appointed Messengers such as occurred historically through a Moses, a Jesus Christ, a Mohammad and even a Krishna and a Buddha. I did not arrive at such a conclusion on my own but from what was revealed from Baha’u’llah, Founder of the Baha’i Faith.

One observation insofar as religion in general is concerned is prophecy. What divides humanity within the medium of religion when it comes to prophecies, however, are differences of fallible human interpretation of the meaning of prophecies in various recorded Scriptures of different religions. For example, Jews had their own idea of how the prophecy of the coming of their Messiah would be fulfilled. Their expectation was that the throne of David would be exalted and the world would be led according to God’s will through Judaism. Christians had their own expectations regarding the return of Christ, according to what they understood in the New Testament to mean, except that they concluded there would be a literal end of the world. Is it possible that whatever prophecies are to be found in past religions have already been fulfilled? It is my personal conviction that such a fulfillment insofar as a Revelation from God is concerned through a Prophet has indeed already occurred.

My personal insistence when it comes to religion is that if it has no practical benefit for humankind on planet earth it is worthless. Whatever has been expressed through the medium of religion historically through its Founders was, in my view, especially fitted for human circumstances at the time and according to what stage of development humanity had attained. For example, world unity would not have been useful as an ideological principle before the entire world or planet had even been discovered. Meanwhile, different areas of the world had special needs necessitating divinely appointed Messengers to meet those individualized needs. However, the practical guidance offered by religions of the past does not suit the needs of the present time since the world in which we live has changed dramatically over time.
If we take the title of the thread "Is God or Religious Truth Real?" Then "no". Some concepts of God and some things called religious "truth" are not real, even for Baha'is. The God of Trinitarian Christians is not real. Satan, the Christian hell, and the resurrection are "truths" to those Christians but aren't real truths for Baha'is. In the beginning of Matthew there are grossly out of context "fulfilled" prophecies about Jesus... out of Egypt I called my son, the killing of the young boys in Bethlehem, that Jesus would be called a Nazarene and I don't even think the "virgin Birth" prophecy is real. So I totally agree with Jews. These are not real prophecies but fabrications. Which, would make them "false" prophecies... that is if the Jews and I are right about them.

So did God reveal these "prophecies" to somebody or did some follower of Jesus scour the Hebrew Bible looking for things he could make into prophecies? I think the latter is probably what happened, and that makes this supposed religious truth in the Gospel of Matthew not real. So, in your "personal" investigation of truth, did you examine the validity of these "prophecies" about Jesus?
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Religion involves followers of Founders or Prophets some of who may have lost their way. Covenants Prophets made with their followers could even have been broken to such an extent the original Revelation from God could have been distorted beyond recognition. In those circumstances I can understand how one may conclude ..."that so much of religion simply does not add up."

No, ALL religions are entirely man made mythologies that have nothing to do with any "messengers", "prophets", etc, nor any "god". It's not that they were "distorted beyond recognition", but that they were ALL distorted to begin with because all the men involved in inventing each religion had no true spiritual understanding what-so-ever, so always made up a lot of clever sounding gobbledygook to deceive people into thinking there was something"special" about them. But there never is. For gobbledygook is and always will be gobbledygook.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
If we take the title of the thread "Is God or Religious Truth Real?" Then "no". Some concepts of God and some things called religious "truth" are not real, even for Baha'is. The God of Trinitarian Christians is not real. Satan, the Christian hell, and the resurrection are "truths" to those Christians but aren't real truths for Baha'is. In the beginning of Matthew there are grossly out of context "fulfilled" prophecies about Jesus... out of Egypt I called my son, the killing of the young boys in Bethlehem, that Jesus would be called a Nazarene and I don't even think the "virgin Birth" prophecy is real. So I totally agree with Jews. These are not real prophecies but fabrications. Which, would make them "false" prophecies... that is if the Jews and I are right about them.

So did God reveal these "prophecies" to somebody or did some follower of Jesus scour the Hebrew Bible looking for things he could make into prophecies? I think the latter is probably what happened, and that makes this supposed religious truth in the Gospel of Matthew not real. So, in your "personal" investigation of truth, did you examine the validity of these "prophecies" about Jesus?

I stopped browsing the forum threads when I saw you were the last person to comment here, because your posts are always worth reading.

I was not disappointed.

A perfect presentation of facts!
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
In the future please don't edit out so much of whichever statement of mine you are replying about.

As I had no idea which post of mine you got this from or what the rest of it was about:

"For God has shown me /... /"

Now I went all the way back several pages and found this one that might be where you got it from:

"For God has shown me the separation of the spiritual and physical realms/universes and the purpose of the separation."

If that is the statement you were referring too, yes, I believe I gave a brief outline of it in the forum thread "Exactly what is a soul".

Sorry about that. I meant if you can please tell me more about spiritual matters that you usually list:

That being God, his spiritual nature, his laws, his judgment process, his plan for all souls, etc...

What is a soul?

Why is the spiritual realm/universe/Heaven separate from the physical realm/universe.

What is the spiritual realm/universe/Heaven like?

What will the "afterlife" be like?

The list goes on, but if they ALL came from God, then a religion should have clear and concise answers to all of them, the great WHY of it all and one's place in all of it, for what purpose.

What are your clear and concise answers that you think religions don't have?
 
So, in your "personal" investigation of truth, did you examine the validity of these "prophecies" about Jesus?
To be honest before I investigated the Baha’i Faith and became a Baha’i I was an agnostic despite feeling a desire to believe in Christianity.

What always stopped me cold from believing in Christianity were nonsensical doctrinal beliefs such as “Original Sin” or in Roman Catholicism the “Eucharist” when a priest allegedly changes bread and wine literally into the flesh and blood of Jesus and that one was supposed to derive a benefit of some sort by consuming it! When it came to other religions there were so many and even within those there were disagreements and disunity.

However, I came to accept a very fundamental Baha’i principle in the “Oneness of God, the Oneness of religion, and the Oneness of mankind.” In other words I came to see religion as a divine process which occurs whenever God communicates through God-appointed Messengers, Prophets, or as Baha’is sometimes refer to them, Manifestations of God such as through a Moses, a Jesus, or a Mohammad. Baha’is believe Baha’u’llah is only the latest one and that in the future there will always be more.

Lastly, my personal view of religion as a process is that it must have pragmatic use for people on earth. If religion is valid then in my personal view it must be timely for the changing circumstances of human life, and what is most need now is world unity. It also must be shorn of all superstitions. So when religion meets certain criteria I think it has the potential to carry forward an ever advancing civilization. Without true religion’s bolstering influence, however, civilization’s very existence is threatened in ways I see occurring today.

Sorry if I rambled. :rolleyes:
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Sorry about that. I meant if you can please tell me more about spiritual matters that you usually list:



What are your clear and concise answers that you think religions don't have?

Please forgive, but that's WAY too broad a question for me to reply to. I would not know where to begin and don't have the staggering amount of time it would take.

So how about using the "Religious Forums" own search field. You can start by using words like soul, spiritual, and God, then type in "Ancient Soul" in the member field. That should pull up all of my posts relating to those topics. That should help you out with the basics anyway.
 
No, ALL religions are entirely man made mythologies that have nothing to do with any "messengers", "prophets", etc, nor any "god". It's not that they were "distorted beyond recognition", but that they were ALL distorted to begin with because all the men involved in inventing each religion had no true spiritual understanding what-so-ever, so always made up a lot of clever sounding gobbledygook to deceive people into thinking there was something"special" about them. But there never is. For gobbledygook is and always will be gobbledygook.
So are we to believe only you are the guide to spiritual understanding? If that is what you are claiming for yourself then I see no difference to that and what “messengers”, “prophets", etc, claim.

What true Messengers, Prophets, or as Baha’is express it, Manifestations of God, has proven historically is that all of them indelibly impacted the world around them. There are many examples such as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and to that list I would add Krishna and Buddha which constitute a different line of religion. What I consider a mythology or man-made gobbledygook is what I perceive coming from you! What is your proof you have indelibly impacted the world? Answer! None! :eek:
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
No, ALL religions are entirely man made mythologies that have nothing to do with any "messengers", "prophets", etc, nor any "god". It's not that they were "distorted beyond recognition", but that they were ALL distorted to begin with because all the men involved in inventing each religion had no true spiritual understanding what-so-ever, so always made up a lot of clever sounding gobbledygook to deceive people into thinking there was something"special" about them. But there never is. For gobbledygook is and always will be gobbledygook.

So are we to believe only you are the guide to spiritual understanding? If that is what you are claiming for yourself then I see no difference to that and what “messengers”, “prophets", etc, claim.

What true Messengers, Prophets, or as Baha’is express it, Manifestations of God, has proven historically is that all of them indelibly impacted the world around them. There are many examples such as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and to that list I would add Krishna and Buddha which constitute a different line of religion. What I consider a mythology or man-made gobbledygook is what I perceive coming from you! What is your proof you have indelibly impacted the world? Answer! None! :eek:

Clever but lame straw man reply.

When you have something to reply with that is DIRECTLY related to try refuting what I posted, let me know.
 
Clever but lame straw man reply.
Care to explain how you took what I wrote to be a straw man comment?

When you have something to reply with that is DIRECTLY related to try refuting what I posted, let me know.
I was not refuting what you posted. I merely shared my opinion it came across to me that you are competing with Prophets in religion and I failed to see how your impact on mankind is in any way similar! :D
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I stopped browsing the forum threads when I saw you were the last person to comment here, because your posts are always worth reading.

I was not disappointed.

A perfect presentation of facts!
Likewise, I always check out what you've posted on these Baha'i threads. I only wish they could give you some straight answers.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
No, ALL religions are entirely man made mythologies that have nothing to do with any "messengers", "prophets", etc, nor any "god". It's not that they were "distorted beyond recognition", but that they were ALL distorted to begin with because all the men involved in inventing each religion had no true spiritual understanding what-so-ever, so always made up a lot of clever sounding gobbledygook to deceive people into thinking there was something"special" about them. But there never is. For gobbledygook is and always will be gobbledygook.

So are we to believe only you are the guide to spiritual understanding? If that is what you are claiming for yourself then I see no difference to that and what “messengers”, “prophets", etc, claim.

What true Messengers, Prophets, or as Baha’is express it, Manifestations of God, has proven historically is that all of them indelibly impacted the world around them. There are many examples such as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and to that list I would add Krishna and Buddha which constitute a different line of religion. What I consider a mythology or man-made gobbledygook is what I perceive coming from you! What is your proof you have indelibly impacted the world? Answer! None! :eek:

Care to explain how you took what I wrote to be a straw man comment?

I was not refuting what you posted. I merely shared my opinion it came across to me that you are competing with Prophets in religion and I failed to see how your impact on mankind is in any way similar! :D

Exactly!

That's the very essence of a straw man, thanks for admitting you tried that tactic of avoidance.

Now I re-posted my original post that you spazed out on, so everyone can see how you did NOT address the point I made, but only made it appear that you did by personally attacking me instead.

Other than one sarcastic reply to Tony, in trying to make a point, you will not find me making any such "messenger" claim. That's just a self-serving straw man fabrication of your's.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Likewise, I always check out what you've posted on these Baha'i threads. I only wish they could give you some straight answers.

I'm kind of used to getting all kinds of tactics of avoidance. Although from time to time I find the frustration does get to me, so I have to go chill out for a while before returning to these forums.
 
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