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Is God or Religious Truth Real?

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Is there any reason to believe God is real

Yes, the only logical thing.

It's human nature to prepare for one's own future. That's how you need a pension plan when getting old. In order to do so, you need an estimation by faith. If life expectancy is 70, then you have an equal chance to die at 60 or 80. So which pension plan will you pick, one for 60 or the other for 80?

Similarly, it's by faith that you assume life ends here or goes beyond. Which future are you going to prepare for, with the faith that life ends here or the faith that life may go beyond. If it's the latter than you need a God to tell what it is as it's out of human capability to tell a future, especially one goes beyond our living realm.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
If some-one claims to be a ambassador for "God", then I want to see his credentials! And of those you've listed, the Buddha made no such claim and Moses is probably a myth.

Show us how you can get to the credentials of Moses?

Humans are incapable of possibly examine the credentials of Moses. Due this incapability one should assume he's a myth?

We are incapable of reaching the edge of our universe too, do we have to assume that it's a myth?
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Do you mean that God is real is the only logical conclusion to come to?

Yes, for one time events happened historically only human testimonies can be treated as valid records. So you have the option to believe that it's a lie or it's a true.

Treat it as a piece of history. Does your country has a long history? Why do you believe history if so?

History is made up of human testimonies most of them are not provable. If don't believe to accept history then your country may have no history. Human testimonies remains the only way to reach history, whether what recorded down contains true or false. In case of a truth, you can only reach this truth by belief.

I don't mean to make a Pascal's wager, however the reality is so!
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes, for one time events happened historically only human testimonies can be treated as valid records. So you have the option to believe that it's a lie or it's a true.

Treat it as a piece of history. Does your country has a long history? Why do you believe history if so?

History is made up of human testimonies most of them are not provable. If don't believe to accept history then your country may have no history. Human testimonies remains the only way to reach history, whether what recorded down contains true or false. In case of a truth, you can only reach this truth by belief.

I don't mean to make a Pascal's wager, however the reality is so!
I think what you are saying is that we cannot prove that a Moses or a Jesus exist, all we have are human testimonies that come to us by way if written scriptures, most of them not provable. So we either choose to believe in these human testimonies or not.

How is that related to Pascal's wager?
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I agree religion is, at least in part, mankind’s attempt to understand God but not without help from what Prophets provide with their Revelations from God. They serve as Mediators between two extremes; an unknowable God responsible for the existence of all things and fallible human beings. It is an entirely different matter for man to discover secrets of the universe through scientific inquiry since God created humankind with that capacity. Perhaps that is why it has been said or understood from the Bible that humans were made in the image and likeness of God? Thus science and religion are two different fields entirely.

God is one entity without peer or equal. Otherwise God would not be God and you might as well imagine that the existence of the universe and everything in it merely occurred haphazardly or by accident.

Also, without Laws of God established from time to time by Prophets human beings could never hope to rescue themselves from their base lower nature. In that respect scientific discoveries constitute a double edged sword! Horrid destructive instruments of war have been fashioned and used to destroy human life. Now humankind has the capacity to not only completely bring about his own destruction and demise but also to bring to an end to what remains of other life forms on earth he hasn’t already destroyed!

Lastly, I would say it is solely due to the impetus of religion through its Founders such as a Moses, a Jesus Christ, and a Mohammad that humankind has been able to establish civilizations. While it is true various civilizations have come and gone the direction the world must take now is to establish a one world civilization.

Mohammad is famous for establishing the nation state. In the future Baha’u’llah will be credited for establishing a one world civilization. :)



I think religion has corrupted your view. This prevents you from seeing the system God has in place now and it's been in place even before religion existed.

Your quote:Also, without Laws of God established from time to time by Prophets human beings could never hope to rescue themselves from their base lower nature.
My Answer: It isn't your man made laws that advances people forward. In fact, given enough time with God's system, laws will become obsolete. This will happen regardless of any religion. There has never ever been the need for prophets or messengers.

God's system works regardless of any beliefs one might have. Since it is based on free choice, each will choose the lessons they will learn.

There already exists one world civilization. We are all Children of God. On the other hand, when the world unites in government, it will not be through religion. Why? God's system pushes everyone toward Truth and Intelligence.

Religion does not understand God nor the Truth. Since religion is a creation of mankind, that is who it reflects. They will have to give up all the petty things mankind holds so dear. Since religion claims to know it all, they are slow to change and advance. There will come a day when religion will become obsolete.

Science will Discover God before religion will. Why? They are walking toward God. They also correct for errors.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I feel sorry that you can't relate to atheist mindsets (or the mindsets of theists who believe in gods other that God-with-a-capital-G, for that matter), but we really are sincere... even "deep down."


I see it differently. I think gods are invented by humanity to put a relatable face on the impersonal and distant.


It's funny how "God's wisdom" always seems to motivate him to act as if he doesn't exist at all, isn't it?


Beliefs have never ever been important to God. With that in mind, your sincere belief that God does not exist is perfectly OK. On the other hand, there will come a time that you will go to God and to your surprise, you already know God.

Seems impossible, however it will happen.

Yes, that is True Wisdom that God acts like God does not exist at all. Free choice is an important part of God's system. If God popped in to say hello, would not everyone be intimidated? The system just would not be the same. Think about it.

Religion does not understand God. I would not base God on those religious stories. As you probably realize, those stories do not add up anyway.

Best advice I can give everyone is: Be who you must! It's a part of the plan!! Listen to the advice of others but walk your own path. Life's lessons are best learned that way.

That is what I see. It's very clear!!
 
Yes, the only logical thing.

It's human nature to prepare for one's own future. That's how you need a pension plan when getting old. In order to do so, you need an estimation by faith. If life expectancy is 70, then you have an equal chance to die at 60 or 80. So which pension plan will you pick, one for 60 or the other for 80?

Similarly, it's by faith that you assume life ends here or goes beyond. Which future are you going to prepare for, with the faith that life ends here or the faith that life may go beyond. If it's the latter than you need a God to tell what it is as it's out of human capability to tell a future, especially one goes beyond our living realm.
In reply to my raising the issue “Is there any reason to believe God is real” you reply in the affirmative, “Yes, the only logical thing.”

It seems to me you are saying that we are all bound by faith whether or not we assume or conclude “that life ends here or that life may go on and continue beyond the grave”?

If life “ends here” then what is there to prepare for other than to squeeze out of physical life as much as possible, or prolong it, while also considering quality of life?

I would say there are two sources known to me that deal with such questions; religion and philosophy.

Philosophy can be further divided into two categories; divine and materialistic. The Greek philosopher Socrates represents the former whereas Marx and Engels represents the latter with their philosophy of communism.

Let’s consider communism as a philosophy which later came to be a political reality in the USSR and in other countries such as China. I will at least look at three specific principles of communism as a philosophy as follows:

1. Firstly, a central principle of communism is that life is purely physical which, you might say, is explained as a purely natural process.

2. Yet another principle predicts what was called a temporary dictatorship of the proletariat, which, by the way, never happened!

3. A third principle made by the philosophy of communism was in defining the origin of morality which they asserted was the outcome of a natural process which they termed dialectical materialism. This principle plays into their political prediction of a temporary dictatorship of the proletariat. As soon as the means of production is forcefully taken out of the hands of capitalists or private ownership a natural process of the rule of morality, namely “from each according to his ability to each according to his need would naturally take place. This natural process would then cause the temporary dictatorship of the proletariat to wither away and die. Needless to say that never took place in the real world.

I will end this merely by observing that the history of the great religions of the world paints a very different picture from the material philosophy of communism, namely that there is more to reality to only what the physical senses can take in. For example I would argue scientific inquiry begins creatively with a hypothesis about physical reality that is not limited by the physicality of human beings. Name me one other known life form on earth that indulges in scientific inquiry. The answer is none which coincides with principles found in the great religions of the world that there is more to human life than his physicality, namely the existence of the eternally of his soul. :)
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
If I found God at the end of the road it would be a pleasant shock; if God were nothing like religion and everything to do with all the best qualities of character.

I don't see any benevolence in nature though.

Rose colored glasses I guess, and God becomes possible. I guess I have seen enough of absolutely senseless events, and tragedies that I do not see God in anything.

Occasionally the majestic sun rays shining through the clouds, Listening to Bach, and a gentle blue sky day trips me up into a sudden moment of see and belief. Then brute reality reminds me, God is a Komodo dragon maker. And aint no being alive would create such a life as that is.
 
I think religion has corrupted your view. This prevents you from seeing the system God has in place now and it's been in place even before religion existed.
What precisely is the source of your information about “the system God has in place now” and that “it's been in place even before religion existed”?

It isn't your man made laws that advances people forward. In fact, given enough time with God's system, laws will become obsolete. This will happen regardless of any religion. There has never ever been the need for prophets or messengers.
So you see no need for traffic laws such as the necessity to obey traffic signals or to stop at stop signs? What about civilization? Can you imagine Western Civilization without a Jude o-Christian Heritage as a basis for its foundation and existence? Or perhaps you are against any kind of civilization altogether and prefer to have lived in the Stone Age? You said given enough time with some kind of God system you imagine is in place all laws will become obsolete?

Of course you realize I hope that without any law at all the only alternative for society is no society, anarchy, and survival of the fittest as one sees in the animal kingdom of existence. So, really! You prefer that? This is what you imagine God is working toward for humanity?
 
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If I found God at the end of the road it would be a pleasant shock; if God were nothing like religion and everything to do with all the best qualities of character.

I don't see any benevolence in nature though.

Rose colored glasses I guess, and God becomes possible. I guess I have seen enough of absolutely senseless events, and tragedies that I do not see God in anything.

Occasionally the majestic sun rays shining through the clouds, Listening to Bach, and a gentle blue sky day trips me up into a sudden moment of see and belief. Then brute reality reminds me, God is a Komodo dragon maker. And aint no being alive would create such a life as that is.
I empathize with you completely! However, it occurs to me to say that the more people and civilization progress the more relief and help to our animal and other species friends can be helped. :rolleyes:
 
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Bird123

Well-Known Member
What precisely is the source of your information about “the system God has in place now” and that “it's been in place even before religion existed”?

So you see no need for traffic laws such as the necessity to obey traffic signals or to stop at stop signs? What about civilization? Can you imagine Western Civilization without a Jude o-Christian Heritage as a basis for its foundation and existence? Or perhaps you are against any kind of civilization altogether and prefer to have lived in the Stone Age? You said given enough time with some kind of God system you imagine is in place all laws will become obsolete?

Of course you realize I hope that without any law at all the only alternative for society is no society, anarchy, and survival of the fittest as one sees in the animal kingdom of existence. So, really! You prefer that? This is what you imagine God is working toward for humanity?



your quote: What precisely is the source of your information about “the system God has in place now” and that “it's been in place even before religion existed”?
My Answer: When I became an adult, I realized that so much of religion simply does not add up. I started a journey to Discover the Real truth regardless of what that might be. I was even open to the possibility that God might not exist.

In this time-based causal universe actions and causes can be seen. Since all the physics of this world add up perfectly, so must the people factor. The people factor would be more complex simply because there are many more variables.

This process leads to God. Understanding God's actions leads to Understanding of God's system and what it's really all about. When one opens one door it leads to more doors that can be opened. Knowledge expands. In discovery, it all becomes clear. If you really do a good job, you might get that visit from God at which you would no longer have to rely on mere beliefs. You would Know.

your quote:This is what you imagine God is working toward for humanity?
My Answer: I realize seeing this is beyond you since there is so much you have yet to Discover. All you can see is this world at this level.

God's system not only brings great knowledge and wisdom, people learn to make the very best choices. So many choices will not longer be viable simply because one has learned these are not the best choices. If everyone is making the best choices, laws and rules would be useless.

Do you see people making choices you could never make? This will happen in a multilevel classroom. Others will be learning lesson some have already learned.Is this a reason to hate others or condemn them as Evil?? Your answer will show God and the world what you need to learn.

God does not give answers. Answers must be Discovered. God has placed knowledge all around us. It waits to be Discovered. Believing, following and accepting will not lead one to the Truth. We are all Living our Lessons. It must be Discovered for oneself.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I don't think the questions you are asking matter. God is an idea, and ideas are real. Beyond that our minds cannot reach. So the questions that matter aren't about God's realness. They are about the effect of choosing to trust in that realness, or not to. And in how we are choosing to characterize the reality of God (or let others do it for us). Where we position ourselves relative to this great mystery will end up defining who we are as humans. And that's the real import, here.

I believe God does reveal there is a huge difference between an idol that can't do anything and God who can do everything.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Ah yes!

The religions war!

Your religion is false because it's different than mine, is not, is too, na ah, you worship demons, no I don't, YOU do... on, and on, and on...

I believe people who see another religion as wrong just because it is different are badly mistaken. I do believe however that a lack of a good source does mitigate against the validity of a religion.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
What about civilization? Can you imagine Western Civilization without a Judeo-Christian Heritage as a basis for its foundation and existence?
Very easily. The West had a civilisation before Christianity plunged it into the medieval barbarism from which we took centuries to emerge — well, parts of the USA are still emerging.
Or perhaps you are against any kind of civilization altogether and prefer to have lived in the Stone Age?
So the people of India, China, and Japan have no civilisation because they have rejected the Judeo-Christian dogma?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I believe God does reveal there is a huge difference between an idol that can't do anything and God who can do everything.
We are free to believe as we wish. But what matters is how what we choose to believe, effects us, and effects those around us, through us.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Show us how you can get to the credentials of Moses?

Humans are incapable of possibly examine the credentials of Moses. Due this incapability one should assume he's a myth?

We are incapable of reaching the edge of our universe too, do we have to assume that it's a myth?

This is one of those comparing apples and oranges things.

If people are going to spend their entire lives believing in the "Moses" story, they better damn well get proof that he's the real deal.

Nobody presently living will ever get to travel to the edge of our universe, so that question doesn't matter.
 
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