Is God or Religious Truth Real?

[osgart]

Anyone can discover maximum goodness and innocence without a Bible or a Messenger. Necessity is the mother of invention. We invent meanings to describe our experiences, or what we may need from experience. The human creature is limited by nature as to what good they can perform and to what extent.

By way of sincerity in seeking we come to know good. When a child hands you something you need thinking it may help you, the child perceived an opportunity to do good. Many children have this instinct that they learn. Likewise a child is taught not to trust just anybody and to be careful that trust is earned and that not everybody is trustworthy. Or learn the hard way.

I see religions generalize all people's to be of one condition, mainly that everybody is in need of Mercy from the Allmighty. How is this knowledge?

We can see that there are two paths in life that people can go by morally. One is of trustworthiness, the other not at all trustworthy. And then we all go about making decisions by way of testing and proving people, or just simply letting people be. Sooner or later we all have to defend against people that are up to no good.

What does religion teach you beyond that of which you come to learn on your own or by way of others without religion?

Does religion produce love or do we find it otherwise?

Trial and error, and failing before we succeed is how many people live. Observation, and experience is how everyone comes to knowing things.
We learn the theory and reality of things by observation and the actuality of things by doing. And isn't that how people know themselves.

I have often been told to just believe and just accept. That is blind Faith.

You must test and prove something to know something. Does religion offer these foolproof tests that you may come to know that the religion is actually true? Otherwise if it doesn't then it is meaningless. Are there any how to guides in religion? Do these books have explanatory power in any regard or do they just lead to more questions and further disillusionment?

I can learn more from a dictionary then I can from any religion. Religion ought to define its terms and clarify its concepts when it speaks of the issues of life. Instead some religions hammers down judgments, issues commands, and declares itself obvious.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Anyone can discover maximum goodness and innocence without a Bible or a Messenger. Necessity is the mother of invention. We invent meanings to describe our experiences, or what we may need from experience. The human creature is limited by nature as to what good they can perform and to what extent.

By way of sincerity in seeking we come to know good. When a child hands you something you need thinking it may help you, the child perceived an opportunity to do good. Many children have this instinct that they learn. Likewise a child is taught not to trust just anybody and to be careful that trust is earned and that not everybody is trustworthy. Or learn the hard way.

This is the way people are supposed to learn right from wrong, on their own. For it's better spiritual wise to learn and WANT to be good, rather than being "good" to follow a religion and doing it because one HAS to.

I see religions generalize all people's to be of one condition, mainly that everybody is in need of Mercy from the Allmighty. How is this knowledge?

That religious lie always rankles me. That people must comply to be "saved" from his own wrath. What a psychotic lie against God that one is.

Does religion produce love or do we find it otherwise?

I would say most people find it "otherwise".

I say that because ALL religions seem to be nothing but a platform to teach hatred and division among all people. As ALL of them have some way to promote exclusiveness to being the ONLY way, the ONLY one from "god", etc, and all other beliefs are false.

Then even within each religion hatred breeds with each person believing ONLY THEIR interpretation of their religious dogma is "right" and everybody else's is "wrong".

I have often been told to just believe and just accept. That is blind Faith.

You must test and prove something to know something. Does religion offer these foolproof tests that you may come to know that the religion is actually true? Otherwise if it doesn't then it is meaningless. Are there any how to guides in religion? Do these books have explanatory power in any regard or do they just lead to more questions and further disillusionment?

I can learn more from a dictionary then I can from any religion. Religion ought to define its terms and clarify its concepts when it speaks of the issues of life. Instead some religions hammers down judgments, issues commands, and declares itself obvious.

That's the thing that has bothered me my whole life. How easily the vast majority of people just cave in without any resistance to the brainwashing of religions and society. Even though they saw serious problems with the bible in bible study, they quickly submitted to be brainwashed even though they could see how many flaws there were. And in a matter of DAYS they were mindless religious zombies blindly believing everything they were told to believe, flaws and all.

 

[lukethethird]

Is God or Religious Truth Real?
When has that ever mattered?

 

[Trailblazer]

Is God or Religious Truth Real?
When has that ever mattered?

What matters to some does not matter to all.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Is God or Religious Truth Real?
When has that ever mattered?

What?

How is it possible that you are oblivious to the Atheist VS God/religious believer flame wars???!!!

Did you find one of those 1950s nuclear bomb shelters to hunker down in maybe?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Is there any reason to believe God is real or that there is validity to religion as a historical process despite there being different religions? My personal response to such a query is that yes, God is real, and that religion as a historical process coming from a real God is real, despite what might seem to be irreconcilable differences among different religions. We expect different conclusions from time to time as a result of scientific inquiry, so why could that not also be true when it comes to religion as a process?

I have concluded that the essence of God is unknowable. However, I have also concluded that God communicates to mankind through a series of divinely appointed Messengers such as occurred historically through a Moses, a Jesus Christ, a Mohammad and even a Krishna and a Buddha. I did not arrive at such a conclusion on my own but from what was revealed from Baha’u’llah, Founder of the Baha’i Faith.

One observation insofar as religion in general is concerned is prophecy. What divides humanity within the medium of religion when it comes to prophecies, however, are differences of fallible human interpretation of the meaning of prophecies in various recorded Scriptures of different religions. For example, Jews had their own idea of how the prophecy of the coming of their Messiah would be fulfilled. Their expectation was that the throne of David would be exalted and the world would be led according to God’s will through Judaism. Christians had their own expectations regarding the return of Christ, according to what they understood in the New Testament to mean, except that they concluded there would be a literal end of the world. Is it possible that whatever prophecies are to be found in past religions have already been fulfilled? It is my personal conviction that such a fulfillment insofar as a Revelation from God is concerned through a Prophet has indeed already occurred.

My personal insistence when it comes to religion is that if it has no practical benefit for humankind on planet earth it is worthless. Whatever has been expressed through the medium of religion historically through its Founders was, in my view, especially fitted for human circumstances at the time and according to what stage of development humanity had attained. For example, world unity would not have been useful as an ideological principle before the entire world or planet had even been discovered. Meanwhile, different areas of the world had special needs necessitating divinely appointed Messengers to meet those individualized needs. However, the practical guidance offered by religions of the past does not suit the needs of the present time since the world in which we live has changed dramatically over time.

What does prophect have to do with God?

I've yet to see any prophecy actually fulfilled, but for argument's sake say that this did happen; wouldn't the most obvious explanation be that the prophet has some sort of magic powers? Why add the extra step and assume that it's a powerful alien intelligence that has the magic powers?

 

[Unity of Mankind]

Now there it is as plain as day. He was writing to Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany and said "O king of Berlin!" and later "inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you". So he was addressing Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany and nobody else. So the threat would have to be carried out within the lifetime of Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany for it to fulfilled prophecy. It wasn't. II."

Please note only after counseling Kaiser Wilhelm I did Baha'u'llah clearly write "Oh banks of the Rhine!" Everything after that was about what would occur in that region which did in fact occur in both WWI and WWII. Thus what Baha'u'llah wrote therein is known in religion as a prophecy.

Contained in the New Testament of Jesus Christ are also prophecies!

 

[Unity of Mankind]

What does prophect have to do with God?

I've yet to see any prophecy actually fulfilled, but for argument's sake say that this did happen; wouldn't the most obvious explanation be that the prophet has some sort of magic powers? Why add the extra step and assume that it's a powerful alien intelligence that has the magic powers?

I'm confused. Are you saying Prophets in the great religions of the world are aliens?

 

[Bird123]

Is there any reason to believe God is real or that there is validity to religion as a historical process despite there being different religions? My personal response to such a query is that yes, God is real, and that religion as a historical process coming from a real God is real, despite what might seem to be irreconcilable differences among different religions. We expect different conclusions from time to time as a result of scientific inquiry, so why could that not also be true when it comes to religion as a process?

I have concluded that the essence of God is unknowable. However, I have also concluded that God communicates to mankind through a series of divinely appointed Messengers such as occurred historically through a Moses, a Jesus Christ, a Mohammad and even a Krishna and a Buddha. I did not arrive at such a conclusion on my own but from what was revealed from Baha’u’llah, Founder of the Baha’i Faith.

One observation insofar as religion in general is concerned is prophecy. What divides humanity within the medium of religion when it comes to prophecies, however, are differences of fallible human interpretation of the meaning of prophecies in various recorded Scriptures of different religions. For example, Jews had their own idea of how the prophecy of the coming of their Messiah would be fulfilled. Their expectation was that the throne of David would be exalted and the world would be led according to God’s will through Judaism. Christians had their own expectations regarding the return of Christ, according to what they understood in the New Testament to mean, except that they concluded there would be a literal end of the world. Is it possible that whatever prophecies are to be found in past religions have already been fulfilled? It is my personal conviction that such a fulfillment insofar as a Revelation from God is concerned through a Prophet has indeed already occurred.

My personal insistence when it comes to religion is that if it has no practical benefit for humankind on planet earth it is worthless. Whatever has been expressed through the medium of religion historically through its Founders was, in my view, especially fitted for human circumstances at the time and according to what stage of development humanity had attained. For example, world unity would not have been useful as an ideological principle before the entire world or planet had even been discovered. Meanwhile, different areas of the world had special needs necessitating divinely appointed Messengers to meet those individualized needs. However, the practical guidance offered by religions of the past does not suit the needs of the present time since the world in which we live has changed dramatically over time.

Deep down, I think we all know God exists. Religion is mankind's attempt to Understand God.

God is not unknowable.

Let's look at an action of God. God does not just give us knowledge. Wisdom is acquired on the journey to Discover knowledge. God does not send messengers. God places truth and knowledge all around us. It waits to be Discovered. This is in every field of knowledge.

All the secrets of the universe stare us in the face. How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how?

Discovery has never been an easy path. So many try to avoid the journey by finding a set of beliefs to patch the gap of the missing pieces. Beliefs merely point a direction by which one can search for the Real Truth.

Like science, truth must be always questioned for one might discover their truth was no more than a belief and the journey is not over.

In the end and since the beginning of time, Brains and intelligence always wins over acceptance.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Ancient Soul]

That's the usual twisting of prophecies I've come to expect.

This Baha'u'llah wrote to Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany.

A quick check proves your above alleged prophecy "fulfillment' to be a falsehood.

Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany 22 March 1797 – 9 March 1888
WW I - July 28 1914 to 11 November 1918
WW 2 - 1939 to 1945

So Kaiser Wilhelm I was long gone by WW 1 & WW 2.

You are BUSTED!



ALL of Jesus' prophecies were supposed to have been fulfilled WITHIN the lifetime of his disciples. So what you are claiming falls WAY outside of that time frame. His disciples were l-o-n-g g-o-n-e by the time that happened. So some honesty would be appreciated in the future.



Sorry for confusing you. I forgot that you belong to the Baha'u'llah religion so have no idea what "clear and concise" means.

I mean that God has always given me answers to my spiritual questions in a clear, concise, and all encompassing manner. And NOT in all that bombastic gobbledygook that Baha'u'llah spews out just to bedazzle people into thinking it's something "important", but has no true spiritual meaning what so ever. And the same for jesus, that in all of the bible's 774,746 some words in it, there is not one thing truly spiritual to be learned from any of it.



You just proved to me that his "teachings" are false. For God has shown me the separation of the spiritual and physical realms/universes and the purpose of the separation.



No it doesn't.

Please note only after counseling Kaiser Wilhelm I did Baha'u'llah clearly write "Oh banks of the Rhine!" Everything after that was about what would occur in that region which did in fact occur in both WWI and WWII. Thus what Baha'u'llah wrote therein is known in religion as a prophecy.

Contained in the New Testament of Jesus Christ are also prophecies!

WOOSH............

Did you her that???!!!

That was the sound of my facts going over your head!!!

Do you even know how prophecy works????????

1. Baha'u'llah wrote to Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany.

2. In that letter Baha'u'llah made threats of what would happen to Kaiser Wilhelm I, and NOBODY ELSE.

3. So NONE of his threats came true within the lifetime of Kaiser Wilhelm I.

4. WW I & WW II happened long AFTER Kaiser Wilhelm I WAS dead.

5. So it's a FAILED prophecy.

 

[Trailblazer]

WOOSH............

Did you here that???!!!

That was the sound of my facts going over your head!!!

Do you even know how prophecy works????????

1. Baha'u'llah wrote to Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany.

2. In that letter Baha'u'llah made threats of what would happen to Kaiser Wilhelm I, and NOBODY ELSE.

3. So NONE of his threats came true within the lifetime of Kaiser Wilhelm I.

4. WW I & WW II happened long AFTER Kaiser Wilhelm I WAS dead.

5. So it's a FAILED prophecy.

A prophecy is a message that is claimed by a prophet to have been communicated to them by a deity. Such messages typically involve inspiration, interpretation, or revelation of divine will concerning the prophet's social world and events to come (compare divine knowledge). All known ancient cultures had prophets who delivered prophecies. Prophecy - Wikipedia

Prophecies are predictions that come to pass. They do not have to happen within any given time frame. UNLESS a time frame is given in which they are going to happen, they just have to happen as they were described. Baha'u'llah did not predict that WWI and WWII would occur during the lifetime of Kaiser Wilhelm I so it is not a failed prophecy.

Moreover,

You said "2. In that letter Baha'u'llah made threats of what would happen to Kaiser Wilhelm I, and NOBODY ELSE."

Sorry but no.... Baha'u'llah made no threats.of what would happen to Kaiser Wilhelm I, and NOBODY ELSE. In fact, Baha'u'llah made no threats of what would happen to Kaiser Wilhelm I at all.

It always helps to read the tablet in question:

“O KING of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High. He, verily, is the Most Gracious, the All-Bountiful. Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves. Be warned, be of them who reflect…O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 39

WOOSH............

Did you hear that???!!!

That was the sound of my facts going over your head!!!

 

[Ancient Soul]

A prophecy is a message that is claimed by a prophet to have been communicated to them by a deity. Such messages typically involve inspiration, interpretation, or revelation of divine will concerning the prophet's social world and events to come (compare divine knowledge). All known ancient cultures had prophets who delivered prophecies. Prophecy - Wikipedia

Prophecies are predictions that come to pass. They do not have to happen within any given time frame. UNLESS a time frame is given in which they are going to happen, they just have to happen as they were described. Baha'u'llah did not predict that WWI and WWII would occur during the lifetime of Kaiser Wilhelm I so it is not a failed prophecy.

Moreover,

You said "2. In that letter Baha'u'llah made threats of what would happen to Kaiser Wilhelm I, and NOBODY ELSE."

Sorry but no.... Baha'u'llah made no threats.of what would happen to Kaiser Wilhelm I, and NOBODY ELSE. In fact, Baha'u'llah made no threats of what would happen to Kaiser Wilhelm I at all.

It always helps to read the tablet in question:

“O KING of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High. He, verily, is the Most Gracious, the All-Bountiful. Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves. Be warned, be of them who reflect…O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 39

WOOSH............

Did you hear that???!!!

That was the sound of my facts going over your head!!!

What is WRONG with you????!!!

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the false claims of "Unity of Mankind" that some pretend "prophecy" was "fulfilled", when it wasn't.

She clearly posted this;

To Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany and said "O king of Berlin!" and later "inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you".

So quit stalking me and butting with your distortions of the debate. That's a threat, and you don't even seem to know what we are debating anyway. Geez...

 

[Trailblazer]

What is WRONG with you????!!!

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the false claims of "Unity of Mankind" that some pretend "prophecy" was "fulfilled", when it wasn't.

She clearly posted this;

To Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany and said "O king of Berlin!" and later "inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you".

So quit stalking me and butting with your distortions of the debate. That's a threat, and you don't even seem to know what we are debating anyway. Geez...

Did you even read what I posted?

You were wrong and I proved it. Why can't you just admit it for once.

I know the Proclamations of Baha'u'llah like the back of my hand.
You are the one who does not know jack squat.
It might help you to be more thorough.

Unity of Mankind never said any prophecy was fulfilled within the lifetime of Kaiser Wilhelm I.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Did you even read what I posted?

You were wrong and I proved it. Why can't you just admit it for once.

I know the Proclamations of Baha'u'llah like the back of my hand.
You are the one who does not know jack squat.
It mighty help you to be more thorough.

Unity of Mankind never said any prophecy was fulfilled within the lifetime of Kaiser Wilhelm I.

You are completely off the rails bonkers because you FAILED to prove your "messenger" from "god" claims by my previous challenge, so now want to sidetrack everything I post about with your train wreck replies that still has nothing to do with the debate myself and another poster was having.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are completely off the rails bonkers because you FAILED to prove your "messenger" from "god" claims by my previous challenge, so now want to sidetrack everything I post about with your train wreck replies that still has nothing to do with the debate myself and another poster was having.

So now because you cannot admit you were wrong about the prophecy, you try to change the subject.

I never failed to prove that Baha'u'llah was from God because I never tried.
I have no interest in proving anything to you.

Obviously, you are the one who is off the rails ... I am as cool as a cucumber.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm confused. Are you saying Prophets in the great religions of the world are aliens?

No, I'm saying that God, as described, is an alien.

 

[Unity of Mankind]

Deep down, I think we all know God exists. Religion is mankind's attempt to Understand God.

I agree religion is, at least in part, mankind’s attempt to understand God but not without help from what Prophets provide with their Revelations from God. They serve as Mediators between two extremes; an unknowable God responsible for the existence of all things and fallible human beings. It is an entirely different matter for man to discover secrets of the universe through scientific inquiry since God created humankind with that capacity. Perhaps that is why it has been said or understood from the Bible that humans were made in the image and likeness of God? Thus science and religion are two different fields entirely.

God is one entity without peer or equal. Otherwise God would not be God and you might as well imagine that the existence of the universe and everything in it merely occurred haphazardly or by accident.

Also, without Laws of God established from time to time by Prophets human beings could never hope to rescue themselves from their base lower nature. In that respect scientific discoveries constitute a double edged sword! Horrid destructive instruments of war have been fashioned and used to destroy human life. Now humankind has the capacity to not only completely bring about his own destruction and demise but also to bring to an end to what remains of other life forms on earth he hasn’t already destroyed!

Lastly, I would say it is solely due to the impetus of religion through its Founders such as a Moses, a Jesus Christ, and a Mohammad that humankind has been able to establish civilizations. While it is true various civilizations have come and gone the direction the world must take now is to establish a one world civilization.

Mohammad is famous for establishing the nation state. In the future Baha’u’llah will be credited for establishing a one world civilization.

 

[Ancient Soul]

So now because you cannot admit you were wrong about the prophecy, you try to change the subject.

I never failed to prove that Baha'u'llah was from God because I never tried.
I have no interest in proving anything to you.

Obviously, you are the one who is off the rails ... I am as cool as a cucumber.
View attachment 37292

You are beginning to freak me out with your obsessively attacking me with these most bizarre posts.

YOU butted into a debate with no idea what we were debating, so your butting in reply had nothing to do with it. So don't go telling "me" that "I" am changing the subject. That's completely nuts.

And you most certainly DID admit that you could NOT prove your "Baha'u'llah was from God".

You have NO credibility with me and you are acting completely bonkers.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Deep down, I think we all know God exists.

I feel sorry that you can't relate to atheist mindsets (or the mindsets of theists who believe in gods other that God-with-a-capital-G, for that matter), but we really are sincere... even "deep down."

Religion is mankind's attempt to Understand God.

I see it differently. I think gods are invented by humanity to put a relatable face on the impersonal and distant.

God is not unknowable.

Let's look at an action of God. God does not just give us knowledge. Wisdom is acquired on the journey to Discover knowledge. God does not send messengers. God places truth and knowledge all around us. It waits to be Discovered. This is in every field of knowledge.

All the secrets of the universe stare us in the face. How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how?

Discovery has never been an easy path. So many try to avoid the journey by finding a set of beliefs to patch the gap of the missing pieces. Beliefs merely point a direction by which one can search for the Real Truth.

Like science, truth must be always questioned for one might discover their truth was no more than a belief and the journey is not over.

In the end and since the beginning of time, Brains and intelligence always wins over acceptance.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

It's funny how "God's wisdom" always seems to motivate him to act as if he doesn't exist at all, isn't it?

 

[GoodbyeDave]

I have concluded that the essence of God is unknowable. However, I have also concluded that God communicates to mankind through a series of divinely appointed Messengers such as occurred historically through a Moses, a Jesus Christ, a Mohammad and even a Krishna and a Buddha. I did not arrive at such a conclusion on my own but from what was revealed from Baha’u’llah, Founder of the Baha’i Faith.

If some-one claims to be a ambassador for "God", then I want to see his credentials! And of those you've listed, the Buddha made no such claim and Moses is probably a myth.