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Is God omnipotent?

Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Xavier Graham SA said:
The Problem of Evil had me reevaluate if I thought God was omnipotent. I no longer think He is.
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Is that because you bought off on the atheist belief that since an omnipotent God can do anything an omnipotent God should eliminate all the evil (suffering) in the world and otherwise God is not benevolent? Do you understand why that atheist argument is illogical? Ability does not imply responsibility. God is not responsible to eliminate suffering just because He can. Also, suffering serves a purpose so it does not negate benevolence.
 
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Xavier Graham SA said:
I’ll have to check the Bible to see if there is any reference to this, but the book of Enoch says the following about the fallen angels: their children, the Nephilim, died in the deluge. God let the souls of 10% of them remain on earth. They are demons, allowed on this earth whose purpose is to tempt mankind.
I consider Enoch canon, but I know that’s a minority opinion.
idk if that’s relevant but yea :) just I think that the Nephilim are still corrupting the present world
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I don't consider the book of Enoch to be canonical and so I gain all my knowledge from accepted canonical scripture....all we need to know is in there.
The Nephilim were the human offspring of materialized angels and human women. They had no right to live because they were not the children of Adam. All of the Nephilim perished in the flood because only those on board the ark were saved. Any mention of very tall men after that were usually the sons of Anak, an unusually tall man who produced very tall sons. They often called them Nephilim only because of their size and strength....men like Goliath, who was more than likely the victim of acromegaly. (gigantism)

The demon fathers of the Nephilim however, were forced back to the spirit realm by the flood taking away any earthly anchor for them to remain. In a state of restraint, they had their ability to materialize taken away from them. But it didn't mean that they were not still permitted to test the human race. They have had an invisible presence here ever since (Jude 6)....sometimes inhabiting the bodies of those who invited them by practicing spiritism, which was forbidden under God's law. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12; Luke 8:26-34) Demon possession was spoken about a lot in the Christian scriptures, and it still happens even today.
 
L

LactoseIntolerant

Member
Xavier Graham SA said:
The Problem of Evil had me reevaluate if I thought God was omnipotent. I no longer think He is.
First, I will cover the Zoroastrian idea of God, and then I will go through Biblical examples.
As a syncretist, I believe that Zoroastrianism provides an accurate depiction of God. The God of Zoroastrians, Ahura Mazda, is omniscient, benevolent, but not omnipotent. The central belief of Zoroastrianism is that Ahura Mazda is in a cosmic battle between the evil god, Ahirman. Every persons actions and thoughts contributes to this cosmic battle, for better or worse. God needs our help to overcome evil, so is not omnipotent in this way.
Now to the Bible.
In the latter end of the book of Daniel, he is praying. He is praying for several weeks, as that’s how long it takes for him to get an answer. An angel eventually comes to where he is praying and apologizes, saying: “Sorry Daniel! God sent me on my way to you the second you started praying, but an evil spirit held me back for a few weeks!”
I remember as a kid, the pastor preached that this wasn’t proof that God wasn’t omnipotent, rather the amount of days was symbolic or something like that, I don’t remember completely. But I think this is proof of God’s omniscience, but lack of omnipotence.
Then there’s Jesus. Do you suppose that if another way was possible to save us, Jesus would have done it? The fact that Jesus was crucified, if we believe our God is benevolent, then surely that sacrifice must have been necessary. If that was the only available route to save man, is God omnipotent?
In the book of Revelations, it is prophesied that people in the Messianic Kingdom will rebel. Does God not have the power to prevent sin, even in heaven?
Do you believe that the God you believe is omnipotent? Why or why not?
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The Father is Omnipotent. As he created the universe and is outside time and space, His Divinity is not knowable. To avoid taking away from His Glory, He is All Powerful. He is All Knowing. He is All Loving.

God can create anything except the impossible. In a universe of free willing humans, evil is more than likely. The only way to achieve a completely obedient universe is to render the humans as robots - remove free will. Since that is throwing the baby with the bathwater, it can be inferred as undesirable. With free willing man, there is no optimum solution just a lot of optimal ones.

What is the result of God interacting with man face to face? Death. Man cannot interact with God for he would surely die. The high priest of must undergo Levitical rituals just to see the Holy of Holies. Once again, God is constrained because of the existence of man.

He gives us an Agent - Jesus Christ. Through the Agent in this universe, the free willing man can become holy enough to be surveyed by God by the choice of faith and obedience.

Can Jesus kill all sinners as He commands the angels. Yes. But once again, the consideration of man's free will and filling the Book of Life constrains him to do so.

God preserves free will as man must choose to be faithful and obedient. Evil is a result of free will.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
ChristineM said:
And you are guessing to satisfy confirmation bias
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No, that is just logic as he said. I don't know if it says that God is transcendent in the Bible but it says that in the Baha'i scriptures.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 166
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
LactoseIntolerant said:
The Father is Omnipotent. As he created the universe and is outside time and space, His Divinity is not knowable. To avoid taking away from His Glory, He is All Powerful. He is All Knowing. He is All Loving.

God can create anything except the impossible. In a universe of free willing humans, evil is more than likely. The only way to achieve a completely obedient universe is to render the humans as robots - remove free will. Since that is throwing the baby with the bathwater, it can be inferred as undesirable. With free willing man, there is no optimum solution just a lot of optimal ones.

What is the result of God interacting with man face to face? Death. Man cannot interact with God for he would surely die. The high priest of must undergo Levitical rituals just to see the Holy of Holies. Once again, God is constrained because of the existence of man.

He gives us an Agent - Jesus Christ. Through the Agent in this universe, the free willing man can become holy enough to be surveyed by God by the choice of faith and obedience.

Can Jesus kill all sinners as He commands the angels. Yes. But once again, the consideration of man's free will and filling the Book of Life constrains him to do so.

God preserves free will as man must choose to be faithful and obedient. Evil is a result of free will.
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Thanks for chiming in and welcome to the forum...
I can always count on Christians to explain things about God because the answers are in the Bible. :)
 
an anarchist

an anarchist

Your local anarchist.
LactoseIntolerant said:
God can create anything except the impossible. In a universe of free willing humans, evil is more than likely. The only way to achieve a completely obedient universe is to render the humans as robots - remove free will
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What do you mean that God can create anything except the impossible? If He is omnipotent, then nothing would be impossible.
This still doesn’t answer if God is restrained by free will itself. I believe humanity, has to of our own free will, collectively turn back to God. To do both of these things: redeem mankind, and extinguish evil forever.
I’m arguing that God cannot redeem mankind with their free will intact with omnipotence. Jesus Christ’s sacrifice was what He had to do, but humanity, of our own free will, has to accept the sacrifice. If God cannot force us to accept the blood of Jesus, thereby saving humanity, is He omnipotent?
I apologize if I’m confusing
 
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Xavier Graham SA said:
What do you mean that God can create anything except the impossible? If He is omnipotent, then nothing would be impossible.
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Which is exactly what the scriptures say....(Matthew 19:26)
Solomon wrote: “There is no man righteous in the earth that keeps doing good and does not sin.” (Ecclesiastes 7:20) So God’s arrangement to have sins atoned for by means of Jesus Christ is the only way through which salvation is possible. The apostle John wrote: “He [Jesus Christ] is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.” (1 John 2:2)

This still doesn’t answer if God is restrained by free will itself. I believe humanity, has to of our own free will, collectively turn back to God. To do both of these things: redeem mankind, and extinguish evil forever.
I’m arguing that God cannot redeem mankind with their free will intact with omnipotence. Jesus Christ’s sacrifice was what He had to do, but humanity, of our own free will, has to accept the sacrifice. If God cannot force us to accept the blood of Jesus, thereby saving humanity, is He omnipotent?
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God is not restrained by our free will......we are. I believe that you are looking at this from the wrong angle....
Will he by his power force salvation on anyone? No! it has to be done out of our own free will, convinced of its benefits and any sacrifices needed to obtain it.....all God can do is what Jesus did.....offer it on terms that will either qualify or disqualify the person to whom it is offered. (i.e. every one of us)

God's power is demonstrated in many ways.....in this instance, his restraint and his far sighted wisdom is also a demonstration of his power.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Xavier Graham SA said:
If God cannot force us to accept the blood of Jesus, thereby saving humanity, is He omnipotent?
Click to expand...
God is omnipotent so God could force us to accept the sacrifice even if God had to override human free will, but God does not want to force us because if God did that God could not separate the wayward from the perverse.

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence. “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71

In the context of the passage above, If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people it means that God could have made all people believers, but IF God has pleased, implies that God did not want to make all people into believers, verified by the fact that not all men are believers. The passage goes on to say why God didn’t want to make us believers... In short, God wants us to choose to believe in Him. The same would apply to believing in the cross sacrifice. God wants everyone to choose to believe Jesus died for us and by letting us choose God separates the wheat who choose to believe from the chaff who don't choose to believe.
 
L

LactoseIntolerant

Member
Xavier Graham SA said:
What do you mean that God can create anything except the impossible? If He is omnipotent, then nothing would be impossible.
This still doesn’t answer if God is restrained by free will itself. I believe humanity, has to of our own free will, collectively turn back to God. To do both of these things: redeem mankind, and extinguish evil forever.
I’m arguing that God cannot redeem mankind with their free will intact with omnipotence. Jesus Christ’s sacrifice was what He had to do, but humanity, of our own free will, has to accept the sacrifice. If God cannot force us to accept the blood of Jesus, thereby saving humanity, is He omnipotent?
I apologize if I’m confusing
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First consider a word game. Can God create
a) A married bachelor?
b) A rock so heavy He cannot lift?
c) A meal so grand He can not eat?

I lack imagination, so if He can, please explain. God can not do anything irrational within a rational universe. Or he must rewrite the universe to permit the irrational.

God is not restrained by His Free Will per se. God is restrained by His Love of mankind. If you are powerful and your loved ones are bugging you silly, would you get rid of them? I hope not. I assume you would do all that is within your power to save your beloveds short of execution. This is the predicament of God. How do you save the obedient ones whom you love from the damned ones whom you love? God gave the Eldest as ransom for all. He gave an example to the obedient and hope to the damned.

Being All Powerful, God can recreate the universe full of robots, then evil is not a problem. But Being All Loving, I believe God wishes to see His Own Image and Say “This is now spirit of My Spirit; I shall called you ‘man’ for out of God we were made." A universe with free willing man can not coexist with a universe of robots. It is impossible thus Omnipotence cannot change that.
 
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