Is God logical?

[mikkel_the_dane]

Well, if would seem so in the positive, namely that God is logical according to some non-religious humans. I can't use atheists, because that will derail completely, so non-religious humans it is.

Here is, how it goes. There are many contradicting claims about God and they can't be true, because they lead to the contradictions about, what God is. Fair and well, but there is a hidden assumption for it to hold, namely that God is logical and can't be contradictory. So how do they know, that God is logical? Well, if they know that, then they have proven, that God exists. And I doubt that, this was their intent. So they will have to admit that, they don't know, if God is logical or contradictory, so the argument fails. If they then claim, that it proves, God is contradictory, then again they know and thus God exists.

It is a lousy argument, because its hidden assumption doesn't hold. I am so tried of these attempts at applying logic on God. Now I am not saying, God doesn't exist nor exists. I am a skeptic and I don't know anything about that.
And I accept all humans as humans, so you can try to prove with logic that God exists or not, but I doubt you will succeed. I am a skeptic after all.
But if someone tries to play with logic, we better know, what we are doing and check our own thinking. That goes for us all, including me. So if I have made an error in my thinking, please point it out and I will try to learn.

Regards and love, though this is a debate sub-forum.
Mikkel

 

[Nakosis]

Well, if would seem so in the positive, namely that God is logical according to some non-religious humans. I can't use atheists, because that will derail completely, so non-religious humans it is.

Here is, how it goes. There are many contradicting claims about God and they can't be true, because they lead to the contradictions about, what God is. Fair and well, but there is a hidden assumption for it to hold, namely that God is logical and can't be contradictory. So how do they know, that God is logical? Well, if they know that, then they have proven, that God exists. And I doubt that, this was their intent. So they will have to admit that, they don't know, if God is logical or contradictory, so the argument fails. If they then claim, that it proves, God is contradictory, then again they know and thus God exists.

It is a lousy argument, because its hidden assumption doesn't hold. I am so tried of these attempts at applying logic on God. Now I am not saying, God doesn't exist nor exists. I am a skeptic and I don't know anything about that.
And I accept all humans as humans, so you can try to prove with logic that God exists or not, but I doubt you will succeed. I am a skeptic after all.
But if someone tries to play with logic, we better know, what we are doing and check our own thinking. That goes for us all, including me. So if I have made an error in my thinking, please point it out and I will try to learn.

Regards and love, though this is a debate sub-forum.
Mikkel

The supernatural doesn't require logic. One can try applying logic, but everything is an assumption when it comes to the supernatural.

Generally any logic applied is that of the believer. Occasional I might try to point out the fault in their logic but that's pretty fickle as at any point they simply alter the assumptions.

The supernatural is filled with unprovable assumptions. One can apply logic only so long as the assumptions remain consistent. While this can't prove or disprove anything in reality, one could still point out any logical flaws.

 

[PureX]

Most conceptions of God are based on a profound mystery that transcends and extends far beyond the comprehension of any human. So that for us to presume that God must be logical, or reasonable, or coherent according to our limited understanding and experience of these, is itself illogical.

We have no idea what God is or is not, or even IF God is. All we have is the fundamental existential mystery of the source, sustenance, and purpose of 'what is'. And because the solution to that mystery lies beyond human comprehension, we are left with endless imagined possibilities, from which we can derive much hope, faith, and idealized progress in our lives (if we choose to do that).

 

[whirlingmerc]

Most conceptions of God are based on a profound mystery that transcends and extends far beyond the comprehension of any human. So that for us to presume that God must be logical, or reasonable, or coherent according to our limited understanding and experience of these, is itself illogical.

We have no idea what God is or is not, or even IF God is. All we have is the fundamental existential mystery of the source, sustenance, and purpose of 'what is'. And because the solution to that mystery lies beyond human comprehension, we are left with endless imagined possibilities, from which we can derive much hope, faith, and idealized progress in our lives (if we choose to do that).

God is logical but man is short sighted and man is not as logical as they think.

"As high as the heavens are above the earth, so how are my thought above your thoughts and my ways above your ways" Isaiah

 

[Koldo]

Well, if would seem so in the positive, namely that God is logical according to some non-religious humans. I can't use atheists, because that will derail completely, so non-religious humans it is.

Here is, how it goes. There are many contradicting claims about God and they can't be true, because they lead to the contradictions about, what God is. Fair and well, but there is a hidden assumption for it to hold, namely that God is logical and can't be contradictory. So how do they know, that God is logical? Well, if they know that, then they have proven, that God exists. And I doubt that, this was their intent. So they will have to admit that, they don't know, if God is logical or contradictory, so the argument fails. If they then claim, that it proves, God is contradictory, then again they know and thus God exists.

I would phrase it as thus: If God exists, his existence is not logically contradictory.

I don't have to know God exists to claim that.

It is a lousy argument, because its hidden assumption doesn't hold. I am so tried of these attempts at applying logic on God. Now I am not saying, God doesn't exist nor exists. I am a skeptic and I don't know anything about that.
And I accept all humans as humans, so you can try to prove with logic that God exists or not, but I doubt you will succeed. I am a skeptic after all.
But if someone tries to play with logic, we better know, what we are doing and check our own thinking. That goes for us all, including me. So if I have made an error in my thinking, please point it out and I will try to learn.

Regards and love, though this is a debate sub-forum.
Mikkel

I highly suggest you to read about the principle of explosion. That should clarify what is the problem with assuming the possibility that logically contradictory statements could be applied to God.

 

[columbus]

"As high as the heavens are above the earth, so how are my thought above your thoughts and my ways above your ways"

This is how I see God.

Which is why I don't find human spokesmen for God at all credible. They go on and on about what God wants or says or plans or whatever. But it's always humans making these assertions, not God.
Tom

 

[whirlingmerc]

This is how I see God.

Which is why I don't find human spokesmen for God at all credible. They go on and on about what God wants or says or plans or whatever. But it's always humans making these assertions, not God.
Tom

God can be logical, but a limited person may or may not not grasp the logic

 

[columbus]

God can be logical, but a limited person may or may not not grasp the logic

Which is why I don't believe people when they tell me implausible things about God.
I think they're making it up, or repeating something someone else made up. Like the Legend of Christ.

Tom

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I would phrase it as thus: If God exists, his existence is not logically contradictory.

I don't have to know God exists to claim that.

I highly suggest you to read about the principle of explosion. That should clarify what is the problem with assuming the possibility that logically contradictory statements could be applied to God.

If God exists and God created the universe, then God is all powerful, because if not then something else could have created God. Thus God is all powerful, so God can't be limited by anything including logic. So God can do the illogical, otherwise God couldn't be all powerful. Now God is not limited to being all perfect, because if limited, then God is not all powerful. God can chose to do as God pleases, otherwise God is not all powerful.

So God was bored, because God can't be limited. God created Satan and said to Satan: I am bored. Satan answered: You can do things, you haven't done. So create a universe with humans, which is natural and in which, the religious believers die and the non-believers go to Hell and make Hell natural. God did so.

Humans can't decide what God is and is not, because if they could, they would be greater than God. In humans are included me and I haven't decided what God is or can do. I have shown that logic doesn't quite work on God as we would like.
You or I can use logic to claim everything about God, but we can't decide anything, because we are not God.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Which is why I don't believe people when they tell me implausible things about God.
I think they're making it up, or repeating something someone else made up. Like the Legend of Christ.

Tom

See above.

 

[columbus]

You or I can use logic to claim everything about God, but we can't decide anything, because we are not God.

Which is why I neither make nor believe truth claims about God. That's what religious folks do, not me.

I'm confident that God is so completely beyond human understanding that all the zillions of claims made about and for God are wrong.

All of them.

Tom

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Which is why I neither make nor believe truth claims about God. That's what religious folks do, not me.

I'm confident that God is so completely beyond human understanding that all the zillions of claims made about and for God are wrong.

All of them.

Tom

You can't be confident, because IFF God exists, then you don't decide what God is, can do and so on. You can't be confident, that they are wrong, because then you control God.

 

[columbus]

You can't be confident, because IFF God exists, then you don't decide what God is, can do and so on. You can't be confident, that they are wrong, because then you control God.

I'm not saying anything about God.
I'm talking about humans. And their many, various, and illogical claims. Maybe one of the zillions of claims is, at least partially, true. I have no way of knowing and I don't claim to know. But I sincerely doubt it because I don't think humans are smart or perceptive enough to have any real information.
But, obviously, they'll make stuff up. That's very clear, we do it all the time.
Tom

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I'm not saying anything about God.
I'm talking about humans. And their many, various, and illogical claims. Maybe one of the zillions of claims is, at least partially, true. I have no way of knowing and I don't claim to know. But I sincerely doubt it because I don't think humans are smart or perceptive enough to have any real information.
But, obviously, they'll make stuff up. That's very clear, we do it all the time.
Tom

It is unknown whether they are true or not as to if there is a God. If there is a God, then their claims are about God. Read the OP.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[Terry Sampson]

So if I have made an error in my thinking, please point it out and I will try to learn.

Apparently, you've never heard of presuppositional apologetics and its principal proponents: Cornelius Van Til, Greg Bahnsen, to name two. As a general rule, I'm pretty sure the presuppositionalists tend to be Calvinist Christians, "Reformed" as in "Reformed Baptist" or "Reformed" or "Orthodox" Presbyterians, i.e. Protestant.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that your reasoning goes something like this:

1. Logic is fundamental.
2. If God exists, God must be logical.
3. Is God logical?
4. If "yes", God exists.
5. If "no", God does not exist.

I think that "Presuppers" would say that your reasoning fails because you have the cart in front of the horse. IMO, they would argue:

1. Logic presupposes God.
2. Logic exists.
3. Therefore God exists.

Or something like that. If you're ever in the mood to spin your wheels and get nowhere, engage a presupper in debate.

 

[Koldo]

If God exists and God created the universe, then God is all powerful, because if not then something else could have created God. Thus God is all powerful, so God can't be limited by anything including logic. So God can do the illogical, otherwise God couldn't be all powerful. Now God is not limited to being all perfect, because if limited, then God is not all powerful. God can chose to do as God pleases, otherwise God is not all powerful.

So God was bored, because God can't be limited. God created Satan and said to Satan: I am bored. Satan answered: You can do things, you haven't done. So create a universe with humans, which is natural and in which, the religious believers die and the non-believers go to Hell and make Hell natural. God did so.

Humans can't decide what God is and is not, because if they could, they would be greater than God. In humans are included me and I haven't decided what God is or can do. I have shown that logic doesn't quite work on God as we would like.
You or I can use logic to claim everything about God, but we can't decide anything, because we are not God.

Regards
Mikkel

You haven't addressed the principle of explosion.
What's your answer to that ?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Apparently, you've never heard of presuppositional apologetics and its principal proponents: Cornelius Van Til, Greg Bahnsen, to name two. As a general rule, I pretty sure, the presuppositionalists tend to be Calvinist Christians, "Reformed" as in "Reformed Baptist" or "Reformed" or "Orthodox" Presbyterians, i.e. Protestant.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that your reasoning goes something like this:

1. Logic is fundamental.
2. If God exists, God must be logical.
3. Is God logical?
4. If "yes", God exists.
5. If "no", God does not exist.

I think that "Presuppers" would say that your reasoning fails because you have the cart in front of the horse. IMO, they would argue:

1. Logic presupposes God.
2. Logic exists.
3. Therefore God exists.

Or something like that. If you're ever in the mood to spin your wheels and get nowhere, engage a presupper in debate.

No, it is not that.

IFF God created the universe, then God needs to be all powerful, or else something could have created God, therefore God is all powerful. If God is all powerful, God can't be limited by the logical and thus can be illogical. God is the source of everything and not limited by anything, thus God can do the illogical.

It is not even close to the above.

 

[Skwim]

God is logical but man is short sighted and man is not as logical as they think.

Consider the following two verses and tell us how logically something both can and cannot be.

Ezekiel 18:20
“The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father…”

Exodus 20:5
“I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation…”

.​

 

[Koldo]

You can't be confident, because IFF God exists, then you don't decide what God is, can do and so on. You can't be confident, that they are wrong, because then you control God.

Depends.
I mean, words have meaning, By the time you explain what you mean by them you are effectively assigning attributes to them, even if vague. After all, you don't intend to mean that I am God, right ? I fail to have certain attributes that would qualify me as God, wouldn't I ? You are quite literally deciding what attributes God ( or at least a few ) has, and therefore who/what God is.

 

[Koldo]

No, it is not that.

IFF God created the universe, then God needs to be all powerful, or else something could have created God, therefore God is all powerful. If God is all powerful, God can't be limited by the logical and thus can be illogical. God is the source of everything and not limited by anything, thus God can do the illogical.

It is not even close to the above.

It doesn't follow that a god that created our universe must be, therefore, able to do what is logically impossible.
That's an unfounded assumption on your part.