Is God in Heaven?

[OnePointSix18]

The traditional concept of heaven has four main features: 1) a place above earth, 2) where god lives, 3) where Jesus came from and is now, and 4) where the blessed will live forever. How do Christians simultaneously reconcile these are facts with a timeless, space-less, immaterial God? For example; 1) Heaven is a place, 2) only what is physical is located in a place, 3) God is not physical, 4) So God is not located in a place, 5) So God is not located in heaven.

 

[Skwim]

The traditional concept of heaven has four main features: 1) a place above earth, 2) where god lives, 3) where Jesus came from and is now, and 4) where the blessed will live forever. How do Christians simultaneously reconcile these are facts with a timeless, space-less, immaterial God? For example; 1) Heaven is a place, 2) only what is physical is located in a place, 3) God is not physical, 4) So God is not located in a place, 5) So God is not located in heaven.

I don't believe your #1 is that well agreed upon. Moreover, I doubt many give it physical parameters such a place in space.

 

[Sleeppy]

Moreso a state of being.. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." It isn't confined to any point in space-time.

 

[Thanda]

The traditional concept of heaven has four main features: 1) a place above earth, 2) where god lives, 3) where Jesus came from and is now, and 4) where the blessed will live forever. How do Christians simultaneously reconcile these are facts with a timeless, space-less, immaterial God? For example; 1) Heaven is a place, 2) only what is physical is located in a place, 3) God is not physical, 4) So God is not located in a place, 5) So God is not located in heaven.

Well for my brand of Christianity it is quite easy. God is a person. He has a body which has weight and occupies space. Therefore heaven is actually a place (as well as a Kingdom and a state of being) and God lives there.

 

[OnePointSix18]

Well for my brand of Christianity it is quite easy. God is a person. He has a body which has weight and occupies space. Therefore heaven is actually a place (as well as a Kingdom and a state of being) and God lives there.

Does the bible specifically say that you go to heaven (given that you pass the test here) when you die?

 

[OnePointSix18]

Moreso a state of being.. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." It isn't confined to any point in space-time.

So someone trying to get a handle on the issue sees a problem in that the bible seems to say contradictory things. I take it you just ignore it?

 

[Thanda]

Does the bible specifically say that you go to heaven (given that you pass the test here) when you die?

I'm not sure. Why do you ask?

 

[OnePointSix18]

I'm not sure. Why do you ask?

From before I can remember I was told that you go to heaven or hell when you die. I can't find anything in the bible that says anyone "goes to heaven".

 

[Skwim]

Well for my brand of Christianity it is quite easy. God is a person. He has a body which has weight and occupies space. Therefore heaven is actually a place (as well as a Kingdom and a state of being) and God lives there.

Is his throne near the star Kolob?


.

 

[Thanda]

From before I can remember I was told that you go to heaven or hell when you die. I can't find anything in the bible that says anyone "goes to heaven".

Doesn't really matter though. The Bible (specifically Revelations) say that such a change will occur in the Earth that it will no doubt be every bit as good and glorious as Heaven is. Furthermore it is said God himself will come down and live with us for a time. Now any place with God in it is surely heaven.

And lastly, as a I said, heaven is also a state of being. And so is hell. Those in heaven are at peace and are happy. Those in hell are in torment (even if it isn't physical) and are miserable.

 

[Thanda]

Is his throne near the star Kolob?


.

So it has been said - I have not yet seen it myself

 

[Etritonakin]

The traditional concept of heaven has four main features: 1) a place above earth, 2) where god lives, 3) where Jesus came from and is now, and 4) where the blessed will live forever. How do Christians simultaneously reconcile these are facts with a timeless, space-less, immaterial God? For example; 1) Heaven is a place, 2) only what is physical is located in a place, 3) God is not physical, 4) So God is not located in a place, 5) So God is not located in heaven.

Technically, God is everything -but he makes of himself something different.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

His dwelling in heaven is similar to his being represented to us in various bodies or forms. It is not a limitation, as such -except that it is a sort of self-limitation for a purpose.

It is not so much that he needs a place to be -but has determined to not be certain places -to set himself apart/distance himself -for various purposes.

Isa 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

Act 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?


In creating man, for example, God essentially subdivided himself -gave over dominion of certain things, power of decision, etc., in order to essentially make more gods.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


By creating things under him -though still of himself -over which he has dominion -God exalted himself -lifted himself up -yet he is also all of which all was made.
He set himself apart -made other individuals and gave them dominion (in computer terms, essentially allocated processing power and addresses) -but will bring all into cooperation and harmony.
There will be many individuals (created by essentially subdividing) -but there will also be unity.

Isa 33:10 Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Rev_21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The end result will be individual creative beings -able to create wonderful things which are new even to God -but who will not cause harm in doing so.

God separated himself from the temporary imperfection he allowed for a time -but he will not always be separate from us by dwelling where we cannot be.

Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

 

[Etritonakin]

Does the bible specifically say that you go to heaven (given that you pass the test here) when you die?

Actually, no -not "heaven" specifically -as in where the throne of God now is -but the "heavens" -essentially the universe -was formed to be inhabited.
Initially, however, the meek shall inherit the Earth -which will be made a paradise. Those in Christ will be raised -from the dead -and made immortal at his return -and will reign a thousand years with him -on Earth.
The rest of the dead will be raised after the thousand years to the judgment -which is not all doom and gloom as many believe it to be.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

G3857
παράδεισος
paradeisos
par-ad'-i-sos
Of Oriental origin (compare [H6508]); a park, that is, (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, “paradise”): - paradise.

Psa 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (emphasis mine)

The present works on the Earth will eventually be done away with -and the earth will be renewed....

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The Earth will be resurfaced and better materials will be made available. Even the nature of animals will be changed so that they do no harm.

Isa 60:17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness. Isa 60:18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.

Isa 43:19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.
Isa 43:20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.


Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

(In the above, creature = creation)
G2937
κτίσις
ktisis
ktis'-is
From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

(see image in signature below -we get to create awesomeness throughout all of that )

 

[OnePointSix18]

Technically, God is everything -but he makes of himself something different.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

His dwelling in heaven is similar to his being represented to us in various bodies or forms. It is not a limitation, as such -except that it is a sort of self-limitation for a purpose.

It is not so much that he needs a place to be -but has determined to not be certain places -to set himself apart/distance himself -for various purposes.

Isa 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

Act 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?


In creating man, for example, God essentially subdivided himself -gave over dominion of certain things, power of decision, etc., in order to essentially make more gods.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


By creating things under him -though still of himself -over which he has dominion -God exalted himself -lifted himself up -yet he is also all of which all was made.
He set himself apart -made other individuals and gave them dominion (in computer terms, essentially allocated processing power and addresses) -but will bring all into cooperation and harmony.
There will be many individuals (created by essentially subdividing) -but there will also be unity.

Isa 33:10 Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Rev_21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The end result will be individual creative beings -able to create wonderful things which are new even to God -but who will not cause harm in doing so.

God separated himself from the temporary imperfection he allowed for a time -but he will not always be separate from us by dwelling where we cannot be.

Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Thanks for all the effort, but even though I've read it almost 3 times I'm lost in metaphor, allegory and the mechanics you are using. I can't tell if you are trying to answer my question or bringing up something else. At first you say God is everything, followed by "It is not so much that he needs a place to be -but has determined to not be certain places -to set himself apart/distance himself -for various purposes." Then he "subdivided himself", "creating things under him", "made other individuals and gave them dominion",The end result will be individual creative beings -able to create wonderful things which are new even to God -but who will not cause harm in doing so". I don't know how this really applies to the question, how do you resolve the contradictions where God in places in the bible are physical and others non physical and modern interpretations, he's immaterial (I'd like to know what that means)?

 

[Etritonakin]

Thanks for all the effort, but even though I've read it almost 3 times I'm lost in metaphor, allegory and the mechanics you are using. I can't tell if you are trying to answer my question or bringing up something else. At first you say God is everything, followed by "It is not so much that he needs a place to be -but has determined to not be certain places -to set himself apart/distance himself -for various purposes." Then he "subdivided himself", "creating things under him", "made other individuals and gave them dominion",The end result will be individual creative beings -able to create wonderful things which are new even to God -but who will not cause harm in doing so". I don't know how this really applies to the question, how do you resolve the contradictions where God in places in the bible are physical and others non physical and modern interpretations, he's immaterial (I'd like to know what that means)?

It is difficult to explain and understand because of the scale of all things -and our perspective in relation to all things.

Technically, nothing is immaterial. God is everything that is. God can change the state of himself/all things and configure himself/all things as he wills.

You are essentially a part of God that God has configured to be separate from him in decision-making power -and has allowed your decisions to affect some of all that God is.
We are all part of the same whole, but configured in such a way as to decide things as individuals and affect things as our configuration allows.

In various places in the bible, God represents himself to us in various ways. There is no contradiction -just different representations -different emergent patterns.

A burning bush, pillars of fire and smoke, a "glorious" body, a body of flesh, etc.... God is not limited to those states -but caused those states to accomplish various things.

It might help to think of "God" as the part of all that thinks and wills to act -and that which is acted upon as his body -which is everything -but which is still part of God.

Even though everything is technically his body/he is the mind of everything -he can configure that body any way he can imagine.
Where we are small -only a part of all -and essentially look outward, he is all and essentially looks inward and outward. All that is is essentially within him -but can ever-increase.

Our reproductive process is similar to what God is making of himself -which is essentially more of himself.
It's a bit like cell division/self-replication, but on a universal scale.

Once, God essentially had dominion over himself. He was not the creator of the Earth until he created the Earth. He was not our God until he made us -and he made us by configuring part of himself to be similar to himself and separate.

His creating the worlds is similar to our imagining creating worlds in our minds -which we can then inhabit by imagining ourselves there -represented by an imaginary body which is within our own real body -but God does similarly for "real"

I refer to it as a sort of multiple personality order. He essentially made multiple personalities of himself. He made worlds within his real imagination -inhabits them as he imagines for real -and allows the individual personalities he has created to inhabit them and create independently.

For now, we have perhaps infinite imagination, but limited power to affect all of "reality" -but we will eventually have increased power to do so -an interface which allows power over even cosmic events -all essentially within the reality of God's imagination.

So yah -that probably didn't help clear things up much

 

[OnePointSix18]

It is difficult to explain and understand because of the scale of all things -and our perspective in relation to all things.

Technically, nothing is immaterial. God is everything that is. God can change the state of himself/all things and configure himself/all things as he wills.

You are essentially a part of God that God has configured to be separate from him in decision-making power -and has allowed your decisions to affect some of all that God is.
We are all part of the same whole, but configured in such a way as to decide things as individuals and affect things as our configuration allows.

In various places in the bible, God represents himself to us in various ways. There is no contradiction -just different representations -different emergent patterns.

A burning bush, pillars of fire and smoke, a "glorious" body, a body of flesh, etc.... God is not limited to those states -but caused those states to accomplish various things.

It might help to think of "God" as the part of all that thinks and wills to act -and that which is acted upon as his body -which is everything -but which is still part of God.

Even though everything is technically his body/he is the mind of everything -he can configure that body any way he can imagine.
Where we are small -only a part of all -and essentially look outward, he is all and essentially looks inward and outward. All that is is essentially within him -but can ever-increase.

Our reproductive process is similar to what God is making of himself -which is essentially more of himself.
It's a bit like cell division/self-replication, but on a universal scale.

Once, God essentially had dominion over himself. He was not the creator of the Earth until he created the Earth. He was not our God until he made us -and he made us by configuring part of himself to be similar to himself and separate.

His creating the worlds is similar to our imagining creating worlds in our minds -which we can then inhabit by imagining ourselves there -represented by an imaginary body which is within our own real body -but God does similarly for "real"

I refer to it as a sort of multiple personality order. He essentially made multiple personalities of himself. He made worlds within his real imagination -inhabits them as he imagines for real -and allows the individual personalities he has created to inhabit them and create independently.

For now, we have perhaps infinite imagination, but limited power to affect all of "reality" -but we will eventually have increased power to do so -an interface which allows power over even cosmic events -all essentially within the reality of God's imagination.

So yah -that probably didn't help clear things up much

From an atheist perspective it seems you've put a lot of effort in avoiding cognitive dissonance. With religion one gives authority to a source, maybe it's the bible, a pastor or maybe their emotional rationalizations upon reflection of what they've read or heard. When that authority clashes with previously believed ideas the mind cannot comfortably hold two contradictory items simultaneously. It then comes down to what one values as to how they resolve the dissonance. I might have been like you some time ago but there came a point that I began to value what I can know and also be able to justify those things to anyone who asked my reasons. I can demonstrate the things I believe to be true; not with 100% certainty but with a high degree of confidence. For example, someone tells me they believe Jesus rose from the dead...I ask why? What sufficient evidence was given to you that cannot be given to me? Do you really have a low threshold for empirical evidence and if so why is that low threshold not present in all other aspects of your life? This type of incongruency was demystified when I realized that most people were indoctrinated into believing religious things. They were told to believe these things well before they had the cognitive tools to question anything. They were told these things by people that loved them and had no reason to lie or deceive them. When you read this what fires first? Your emotions or intellect?

 

[Jiddanand]

The traditional concept of heaven has four main features: 1) a place above earth, 2) where god lives, 3) where Jesus came from and is now, and 4) where the blessed will live forever. How do Christians simultaneously reconcile these are facts with a timeless, space-less, immaterial God? For example; 1) Heaven is a place, 2) only what is physical is located in a place, 3) God is not physical, 4) So God is not located in a place, 5) So God is not located in heaven.

Good question and argument.
Heaven is a place. Can't say where, above earth or below or somewhere else.
People say that only virtuous souls go to heaven after death. So a living person can't know what is Heaven like. However Heaven is a place of pleasure, happiness and joy. Maybe souls find the Ultimate desire fulfilled there and hence don't have sick feeling about life. Maybe they find joy living there and fear to return back on here.
God doesn't live in heaven but there's a King of Heaven. He rules absolutely.

 

[Windwalker]

The traditional concept of heaven has four main features: 1) a place above earth, 2) where god lives, 3) where Jesus came from and is now, and 4) where the blessed will live forever. How do Christians simultaneously reconcile these are facts with a timeless, space-less, immaterial God? For example; 1) Heaven is a place, 2) only what is physical is located in a place, 3) God is not physical, 4) So God is not located in a place, 5) So God is not located in heaven.

I reconcile them quite easily. The descriptions of heaven as a place "up there", or that of God "out there somewhere", etc are simply descriptions of the ineffable in mythological terms. They describe the mind's interpretation of such transcendent ideas symbolically, extrapolating from human experience with the world to the spiritual as a different sort of "world", like their own but better, or higher, or more powerful. God becomes envisioned as a "person" in the sense of a really big human, anthropomorphized with emotions, thoughts, ideas, values, judgments, social order, or even physical features.

Do many believe these as literal descriptions? Yes, and largely it is a case of the mind's ability at that point to understanding God symbolically beyond mythic-literal descriptions. Spiritual truths are conceptually very abstract, but symbols become easier 'hooks' for the mind to look to that, at their best, function to inspire faith from within the person, which is the nature of the spiritual itself. At worst, they become anti-rational caricatures of the spiritual, turning God into things on the order of a Yeti, or some other cartoon-like Extra Terrestrial with a literal physical body who lives on a planet near a star in the constellation Beetlejuice with his God-wife having babies with her, where the "believer" substitutes dogmatic beliefs for symbolic truth. That people are not able to conceptualize of God yet beyond mythic descriptions, but do in fact find actual spiritual value in the symbols, shows that these are "true" despite the fact that literally, at a rational level of scientific inquiry they are not-true.

So at the rational level, one either embraces the myth symbolically for its archetypal value, or they take the baby of spirituality from the bathwater of mythic-literal interpretations and place it into another linguistic context, understanding earlier language used such as "Jesus ascended to heaven" as metaphorical expressions of higher spiritual truths, representing interior realities in linguistic terms. The challenge of course has been to find an adequate language that can function symbolically like this for the individual and the community in a post-mystic spiritual reality without falling into some anti-spiritual, anti-religion form of atheistic materialism that mocks and derides anything spiritual as "woo". The "spiritual atheist" is faced with that challenge as they now try to move atheism to "atheism 2.0", as I've heard it being referred to. Factually, any language whatsoever we use at best is a finger pointing to the moon and not the moon itself.

So even reframing the human truths realized by those in the past framing them in mythological terms into modern, or postmodernist terms, themselves are far from "factually" representing the truth of the experience or the truths that are revealed to the mind through them. We always must interpret spiritual experience in terms available to us, and at any point to take symbolic expressions and turn them into literal definitions destroys the reality of the experience of the spiritual itself into a caricature of itself. They shouldn't be described in scientific or rational terms as the "facts", as the truth of them is beyond that. But they should be compatible with the rational mind and not violate it, in the way that love is non-rational, but is not anti-reason. It is complementary in human experience and informs the whole person. Anti-reason is not complimentary.

 

[Sleeppy]

So someone trying to get a handle on the issue sees a problem in that the bible seems to say contradictory things. I take it you just ignore it?

Don't ignore it.

 

[Etritonakin]

From an atheist perspective it seems you've put a lot of effort in avoiding cognitive dissonance. With religion one gives authority to a source, maybe it's the bible, a pastor or maybe their emotional rationalizations upon reflection of what they've read or heard. When that authority clashes with previously believed ideas the mind cannot comfortably hold two contradictory items simultaneously. It then comes down to what one values as to how they resolve the dissonance. I might have been like you some time ago but there came a point that I began to value what I can know and also be able to justify those things to anyone who asked my reasons. I can demonstrate the things I believe to be true; not with 100% certainty but with a high degree of confidence. For example, someone tells me they believe Jesus rose from the dead...I ask why? What sufficient evidence was given to you that cannot be given to me? Do you really have a low threshold for empirical evidence and if so why is that low threshold not present in all other aspects of your life? This type of incongruency was demystified when I realized that most people were indoctrinated into believing religious things. They were told to believe these things well before they had the cognitive tools to question anything. They were told these things by people that loved them and had no reason to lie or deceive them. When you read this what fires first? Your emotions or intellect?

I was essentially just paraphrasing what was written -attempting to explain it in more plain terms.

I probably have experienced more evidences than most to support what I believe -and can honestly say my beliefs came more by evidences, as my intellect tends to fire first.

I definitely believe we can know some things generally before we can prove that we know them -that the processes of our minds are sometimes beyond our understanding -similar to our minds being able to make the calculations necessary to throw a football at a moving target while we could not consciously duplicate the math. However, I do like to show the work as it were when it comes to core beliefs.

Meanwhile, I categorize things as accurately as possible based on what they are -hearsay, personal experience, possible, impossible, likely, unlikely, etc.. and make decisions from there. What else can we do except ignore the facts or lack thereof?

Assuming the accounts given in the bible are accurate, some had direct evidence of Christ being raised from the dead. They experienced what I call an unusual arrangement of common things -which can not easily be reproduced.

The etch-a-sketch of history is erased by the new state of things, and we can only hope to have an accurate account of previous states.

We will never see Christ raised from the dead in the past -because the past will not be again. However, when we -if we are present -have the evidence of him standing in power and glory on the earth -assuming the government of the earth after putting down those forces which attempt to fight him at his return -then being ever-present -then we will certainly have reason to take the account of his resurrection more seriously.

When I read something like that, I take it for what it is, and add it to everything else. I did not witness it, I cannot reproduce it, I cannot prove it -but I do believe it based on many other things of a more direct nature.
I actually scoffed at many religious teachings initially.

There is nothing wrong with not believing what you honestly do not or cannot believe at the time. There certainly is, however, danger in believing things without any evidence -and acting upon false ideas (or doing that which you truly know is wrong by its nature.)
Many are confused about true faith in that regard. True faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for -the EVIDENCE of things not seen.

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Even "doubting Thomas" had seen many evidences which should have given him reason not to completely doubt the other apostles when they said they saw Christ raised from the dead -but Christ really did not scold him, either.

Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

He simply said that those who believed yet had not seen were blessed....

Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

....but that is not the same as saying those who have not seen should believe without any evidence whatsoever. They are those who are blessed with other evidences.

I consider myself blessed because I have experienced evidences which cause me to believe Christ rose from the dead -some of which is personal experience of evidences, some of which is reasoning/modeling, if you will -based on those evidences.
I was not present when Christ rose from the dead -and that is all that one not present can do. However, the evidences I have experienced I cannot reproduce for you -except to say that if you draw near to God, he will draw near to you, as written, and you will also have evidences. You can reproduce the circumstances which will make it more likely for God to show you evidences.

Consider how much of what you "know" that you really "know". How many non-religious things do you believe that you did not actually witness, can not reproduce and cannot prove?

Some basic facts remain regardless of the state of everything -and some things are more permanent than others, but the state and arrangement of everything is constantly changing.

It is good to have as many facts as possible in order to make better decisions, but we still have to make many decisions all day long with incomplete data. We act on a general idea of the past, present and future states of things -which is incomplete and usually inaccurate. Still, we can usually know enough to get by and even do well.

Science is an excellent tool, but if we wait for all of the facts, we would not move forward. As we move forward, we gain more understanding, more facts, more evidence.

With religion, my basic core beliefs are the commandments -because I can prove absolutely that they are good, and would produce universal good if kept universally.
Even if one does not believe in God, the principles behind even the first few commandments concerning how to begin to relate to God are sound in respect to whatever was before us.
It should be respected for what it is. It should not be taken in vain. It should be the reference for all actions, etc....
I do believe in the God referred to specifically by the commandments -and have gained enough evidence by reason and experience to support the beliefs that God exists -that he wills that I rest on the seventh day specifically, etc.


As for why evidences are given to some and not to others -it is just a matter of time and order -as with all other things.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

God actually keeps things from people until it is time for them to understand....

Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.