1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Is Gehenna a Place of Eternal Suffering ?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Neuropteron, Aug 3, 2018.

  1. Neuropteron

    Neuropteron Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2018
    Messages:
    557
    Ratings:
    +278
    Religion:
    Christian
    In the Gospel accounts, Jesus warns his disciples against suffering the judgment of Gehenna. Matthew 5:22.
    The Greek word Gehen·na corresponds to the Hebrew geh Hin·nom, meaning valley of Hinnom, or more fully geh veneh-Hin·nom, valley of the sons of Hinnom. (Joshua 15:8; 2 Kings 23:10)

    This valley was a garbage dump for the city of Jerusalem. The place served as an incinerator where fires were kept burning to dispose of rubbish, and where criminals were incinerated "AFTER" they were dead.. Anything thrown into this dump would be completely destroyed, turned into ashes.

    Many Bible translators have taken the liberty of rendering Gehen·na as hell. which should be translated only from Sheol and Hades.

    Why? Because they associated the pagan-inspired notion of an afterlife of fiery torment for the wicked with the physical fire in the valley outside Jerusalem.
    Jesus knew that the very thought of burning people alive is repugnant to his heavenly Father.

    Referring to this concept, JHVH said: "a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart. (Jeremiah 7:31)

    Jesus used the term Gehenna to symbolize the utter destruction (not eternal torment) resulting from Gods adverse judgment. Hence, Gehenna has a meaning similar to that of the lake of fire, mentioned in the book of Revelation. Both symbolize eternal destruction from which no resurrection is possible.Luke 12:4, 5; Revelation 20:14, 15.

    Would answering questions such as following, answer the question of eternal torture ?

    Where did Jesus go to before his resurrection ?
    Where did Job aspire to go, to end his suffering ?
    Does this doctrine conflict with the notion of a loving God ?
    How does eternal suffering harmonise with Ecc.9:5 "The dead are conscious of nothing at all" ?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  2. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    4,229
    Ratings:
    +2,052
    Well, I am not going to try to digest this in one sitting. It would be helpful if you revealed your Christian orientation. The various denominations have widely different ways of interpreting scripture. I used to be a Christian a long time ago, but now the whole mess is so fallen and so few actually make an effort to understand their neighbor. Sigh. :(

    Amish and Catholics differ astonishingly. Baptists and Lutherans are barely on speaking terms. And I daren't admit that I am very Muslim in my expression of the Christian book, though perhaps the Jews have the best understanding but they are wont to share what they know. Allah SWT please have mercy on us all.
     
  3. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    4,229
    Ratings:
    +2,052
    Oh, you are JW. Why didn't you just say so. Your interpretation, while you have a right to it is quite harsh, posing God as quite mean and brutal.

    I already lived through that part. Believe me, you don't want to know. So I choose the Creator who is nice to me and healed many of my injuries.
     
  4. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,658
    Ratings:
    +1,697
    Unfortunately, there is more evidence that Hell is both scripturally eternal, ie eternal suffering, and from traditional most accurate assumption.

    Gehenna merely shares a name, at best /the physical place.
    Gehenna in the Bible, does not mean the physical place, that would make no sense.
    The Gehenna in the Bible, is one of the Hells that in english, gets translated to hell, sometimes, but not always. Hence, hades and a couple other types of Hell do exist, however they get mixed up.
    Gehenna occurs after Judgement, and isn't the same as the Greek "Hades", which is like waiting for Judgement. There is nothing pagan about the Biblical or Jesus follower conception of Hell, it merely differs from that of Judaism. Eternal Hell does exist in the OT, so I guess it's which verses you believe. They used Greek words to approximate the beliefs, and sometimes they don't match every idea. Concerning the Greek word for 'annihilation', this actually does not infer an 'end', like it does in English. Hence eternal annihilation, is literally eternal, not a one time annihilation, as it might read, in English.

    Eternal Hell corresponds to what we can presume Jesus taught, as it correlates to what He alludes to, elsewhere. In other words, if Jesus is your base point of Scriptural inference, you would go with eternal Hell, eternal torment.

    If Jesus's inference to what we would presume He wanted us to use as Scripture, for knowledge, isn't important, as it isn't with many Christians, then you can sort of believe the annihilation is a one time thing. Just know that if you do, you are contradicting Scripture.

    So, who do you believe? That's really what it comes to, here.
     
  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    15,567
    Ratings:
    +2,648
    I find that Acts of the Apostles 2:27 answers where did Jesus go before his resurrection.
    Dead Jesus simply went to the grave which is biblical hell.
    So, dead Jesus was unconscious in the stone-cold grave until his God resurrected dead Jesus out of the grave.

    Suffering Job according to Job 14:13-14 wanted to be hidden in the grave until his God remembered him.
    Job's belief was in harmony with Psalms 49:15 that God would redeem him from the grave.
    God's mercy would deliver Job (and Jesus) from the grave as per Psalms 86:13.
    So, the resurrection hope does Not conflict with the notion of a loving God.
    No suffering in biblical hell (aka grave) because the dead are in a sleep-like state as per Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4.
    That is why Jesus could inform us at John 11:11-14 that the dead are in a sleeping state.
    Even the word 'cemetery ' means: sleeping place.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    15,567
    Ratings:
    +2,648
    I find Gehenna was at best the physical place because what was thrown into Gehenna was: destroyed forever.
    Gehenna being a garbage pit were physical things were destroyed forever, and Not kept burning forever.
    This I find to be in harmony with Psalms 92:7 that the wicked will be destroyed forever, Not roasted forever.

    Can anyone think of anyone righteous who at death went to hell ________
    On the day righteous Jesus died he went to biblical hell according to Luke at Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
    If biblical hell was a permanent place then Jesus would still be in the Bible's hell.

    I wonder how biblical hell can be eternal when I read at Revelation 20:13-14 that after everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up ' because to me that means resurrected up out of hell. Then, emptied-out hell is cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell.
    Since 'enemy death' will be No more according to 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8 then biblical hell will No longer exist because enemy death will No longer exist.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,885
    Ratings:
    +2,924
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    The KJV uses "hell" at Acts 2:27, 31 where Jesus is said to be for three days.
    It also uses "hell" where Jonah is in the big fish - "out of the belly of hell cried I" - Jonah 2:2
    Other translations use sheol (Hebrew) and hades (Greek) in these texts.

    So if hell is a place of everlasting fire, how are we to understand these texts.

    Jesus said (KJV) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40
    David said his soul was not left there to decay.

    Reading more into these text would seem to lead us away from the truth of what the scriptures are saying - Jesus was dead in the grave for three days, as he said he would be.
    He was raised up on the third day, according to scripture.
     
  8. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Ratings:
    +467
    Religion:
    Christian gnosis
    Jesus spoke spirit. He tried to equate physical themes to spiritual ones (Parables).

    Hades is the grave, the area after physical death (flesh). Those who follow not the Spirit (capital S) will be with the (Demiurge, IMO) his thoughts/existence. He is neither eternal nor truth, but the imperfect (god) who created imperfect (universe/flesh/Aeon).

    He and his followers will disolve. The Father doesn't destroy anyone or anything. They destroy themselves. The Spirit saves the soul, created by imperfection, but loved by the Father who saves it/us from the destruction placed from the beginning. The Spirit makes the soul perfect.

    Only "sons" of God are saved (daughters as well).

    The world came about through a mistake. For he who created it wanted to create it imperishable and immortal. He fell short of attaining his desire. For the world never was imperishable, nor, for that matter, was he who made the world. For things are not imperishable, but sons are. Nothing will be able to receive imperishability if it does not first become a son. But he who has not the ability to receive, how much more will he be unable to give?- Gospel of Philip

    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.-John 1

    Jesus was the first Christ, the son of God. He taught us how to become "sons" of God as well. Through the Spirit (Holy/Mother) that makes us sons and daughters. He claims her many times.
     
  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,885
    Ratings:
    +2,924
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
  10. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    7,422
    Ratings:
    +3,524
    Religion:
    Judaism
    We Jews are the ones who originally had the concept of Gehenna, and I'll tell you it is not eternal torture. It is a temporary hell (one might use the word purgatory even except that that sounds Catholic) where one is purified for the resurrection.

    Keep in mind that there are a great many ideas about the afterlife among Jews. Some Jews believe in the transmigration of souls. Some Jews believe in no afterlife at all.
     
  11. Wheel08

    Wheel08 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2014
    Messages:
    7
    Ratings:
    +2
    Peace. Just some thoughts….

    Gehenna is reserved for those who will resist what they hear the Spirit saying and will speak against it in their wrath (and not repent of their evil words). This is for a coming time in the Day of Judgment upon this earth when the Lord comes to open up the Scriptures to our understanding and deliver His people from error...false doctrines, etc.

    The tongue that will speak careless words in the Day of Judgment which will bring about the fire of Gehenna upon oneself as judgment.

    James 3: 5-6
    5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasts great things. Behold, how great a forest a little fire kindles!
    6 And the tongue is a fire. The world of iniquity among our members is the tongue, which defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by Gehenna.


    It was the tongue that brought the rich man “torment” upon him in the judgment.

    Luke 16:24
    And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

    But this torment in the judgment of the Gehenna is not eternal but temporary as the wages of sin is death. Yet, the tongue (on fire of Gehenna) will bring torment to those who speak evil while they live in this earth. the only way out of this is death as there will be no more sacrifice for willful sins (evil speaking and not repenting of it).

    Matthew 18:33-34
    33 Shouldst thou not also have had compassion on thy fellow-servant, even as I had pity on thee?
    34 His lord was angry, and delivered him to the tormentors, until he should pay all that was due to him.


    The scribes and Pharisees could not say anything good to Jesus but resisted Him and the Spirit by which He spoke by and were in danger of judgment of the Gehenna.

    Matthew 23: 13
    'Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
     
  12. allright

    allright Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    685
    Ratings:
    +59
    Rev 20:10 the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever

    The beast and the false prophet are humans and they are not unconscious but tormented for ever and ever
     
  13. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,793
    Ratings:
    +758
    Religion:
    Bible Believer
    Excellent post. I would also add the question how could an immortal soul be punished forever in hell when Romans 6:7 says that we are acquitted from our sins upon death. The wages of sin is death, not eternal punishment. Also hell can't be a separation from God since he is, in effect, there. Amos 9:1-2 Psalm 139:8.
     
  14. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,793
    Ratings:
    +758
    Religion:
    Bible Believer
    Since the person with the name Hinnom as well as the meaning of the name itself is unknown how do you establish that the valley was the "concept" of you Jews? Because you are Jewish? The very fact that you point out a variation in belief speaks of some confusion since the most early days of the term, not to mention the use of the valley in Manasseh's time and the time of Jesus as well.
     
  15. allright

    allright Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    685
    Ratings:
    +59
    Hebrews 9:27 It is for a man to die once, then comes judgement
     
  16. Neuropteron

    Neuropteron Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2018
    Messages:
    557
    Ratings:
    +278
    Religion:
    Christian
    ...........

    It is commendable that you are trying to understand your neighbor, since I view all of earth inhabitants my neighbor and because there is 8 billion of them I don't think that it is in my power to understand them all. I do however try to understand God's inspired word to the best of my ability and to live in accord with it's principles.

    I fail to see how my affiliation with an earthly religious organization , race, or any other personal details should affects my comments on this forum or why it is of interest to anyone but myself.

    Either what we say is true or it's not, regardless of personal details, lest we fall into the temptation of critizising the speaker instead of his words. (ad honinem).

    All the best
     
  17. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    7,422
    Ratings:
    +3,524
    Religion:
    Judaism
    If you read your Bible, you will find that Jews existed a LONG time before Christians. It's our word, and our concept. Christians appropriated it from us.
     
  18. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    19,607
    Ratings:
    +1,527
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe there is no evidence to support this notion other than the misinterpretations of JW leaders.
     
  19. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    19,607
    Ratings:
    +1,527
    Religion:
    Christian
    The Qu'ran says Jesus will sort all that out. I don't mind saying that I am a Christian and a Muslim although I view the Qu'ran with the Help of the Holy Spirit which is a different view from either modern Christians of Muslims.
     
  20. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    19,607
    Ratings:
    +1,527
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe you should read Job. He was able to accept his Creator in sickness and in health , for richer or poorer.
     
Loading...