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Is faith the backbone of Science?

Jeremiahcp

Well-Known Jerk
I think then we very much agree on the method as an ideal- a method- not a conclusion, and so that acknowledging 'faith' in any conclusion should ideally be a backbone of science- yes?

But I'm referring to the less than ideal reality- most things with the shiny label 'science' slapped on, are the furthest thing from our ideal- where sadly today, expressing any interest in scrutinizing claimed conclusions, renders someone a 'denier of truth'

If you really want to understand how it works, I suggest you study the philosophy of science, then move on to studying of the application of science.

At this point I think it is clear that you have not invested the time to actually understand the method, and that you simply want it to be based on "faith". When you take the time to actually understand the rational behind it (which is not as simplistic as you are trying to make it out to be) then you realize it is based in reason. Now maybe people have faith in science, like you, but the actual process itself is based in reason, not faith.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Is meditation from science or related to and from faith? Please
It is from neither. Just like science it works both for the religious and non-religious, faithful and faithless. And there are scientific studies of it's effects.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Incorrect. Those things are not valued arbitrarily, those things are valued because they get real world results. If blind faith could somehow yeild Discovery and technology, it too would be among those things.

Why do we care about real world results? Why do we care about discovery and technology?
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
If you really want to understand how it works, I suggest you study the philosophy of science, then move on to studying of the application of science.

.

This may be a better way to explain this Jeremiah

The Wright brothers, Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Bill gates, did not study the philosophy of science, nor did they 'study' it's application, they were too busy actually applying the method

Hawking, Dawkins, DeGrasse- I'm sure could give lectures and sell books on their knowledge of academic definitions of science to your satisfaction. Can you name the single greatest practical scientific contribution of any of them?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I think then we very much agree on the method as an ideal- a method- not a conclusion, and so that acknowledging 'faith' in any conclusion should ideally be a backbone of science- yes?

But I'm referring to the less than ideal reality- most things with the shiny label 'science' slapped on, are the furthest thing from our ideal- where sadly today, expressing any interest in scrutinizing claimed conclusions, renders someone a 'denier of truth'
So said all deniers of truth...
 

Jeremiahcp

Well-Known Jerk
This may be a better way to explain this Jeremiah

The Wright brothers, Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Bill gates, did not study the philosophy of science, nor did they 'study' it's application, they were too busy actually applying the method

Hawking, Dawkins, DeGrasse- I'm sure could give lectures and sell books on their knowledge of academic definitions of science to your satisfaction. Can you name the single greatest practical scientific contribution of any of them?

You seem to be trying to make some type of appeal to authority, but the odd part is that you have not shared any the supposed authorities' views on the current topic. I really have no idea what you are trying to prove, other then just dropping some names.

"did not study the philosophy of science,"

Perhaps not, I don't really know their history well enough to say.

"nor did they 'study' it's application,"

I really doubt that.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Some is faith based on conjecture, that is belief with little evidence, and some is faith based on deserved trust! Being able to see the difference is important
But that's really not the way scientists work as there are different "levels" involved with any scientific approach, thus it's important to know the difference between a "hypothesis", a "theory", and an "axiom". "Conjecture" (which we call a "hypothesis") is not acceptable unless it is backed by some evidence that it could be true.

Science is evidence-driven, and through the use of the scientific method, it removes unwarranted conjecture as part of such evidence.
 

Jenny Collins

Active Member
But that's really not the way scientists work as there are different "levels" involved with any scientific approach, thus it's important to know the difference between a "hypothesis", a "theory", and an "axiom". "Conjecture" (which we call a "hypothesis") is not acceptable unless it is backed by some evidence that it could be true.

Science is evidence-driven, and through the use of the scientific method, it removes unwarranted conjecture as part of such evidence.
I know very well what all of those words mean in science! Why do you think you have to explain them to me? And yes, science DOES work the way I said, because there are many mistakes! I would prefer not to get in another debate! I just came from another post and had to deal with around seven people at once, who really didn't say anything compelling or convincing, mainly just insults, and I would prefer not to get involved with anything like that again! If you want to argue this, whatever! Understand that you won't change my mind in any way, shape or form! Not because of a closed mind, but because of sticking to what I know! The person here asked a question, I answered! You won't change my beliefs!
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
You seem to be trying to make some type of appeal to authority,

the exact opposite, practical application v academic authority.


science is a very subjective concept, people can argue their own philisophical definitions all day long, that's why you can even take a course in it. My point is that practical results are the best objective measure of scientific merit
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I know very well what all of those words mean in science! Why do you think you have to explain them to me? And yes, science DOES work the way I said, because there are many mistakes! I would prefer not to get in another debate! I just came from another post and had to deal with around seven people at once, who really didn't say anything compelling or convincing, mainly just insults, and I would prefer not to get involved with anything like that again! If you want to argue this, whatever! Understand that you won't change my mind in any way, shape or form! Not because of a closed mind, but because of sticking to what I know! The person here asked a question, I answered! You won't change my beliefs!
My words weren't meant to offend but to simply point out the use of certain words that we use that are often misunderstood or improperly used. How much you may or may not know I don't know since I believe this is the first post I've seen from you, and notice that I was just reacting to one sentence of yours as a point of clarification with no intention of starting an argument that I also detest.

Sorry if you took me the wrong way.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
the exact opposite, practical application v academic authority.


science is a very subjective concept, people can argue their own philisophical definitions all day long, my point is that practical results are the only objective measure of scientific merit
Yes, like right now how theory of evolution is helping the medical researchers in finding the causes and cures of chronic inflammatory diseases (autoimmune disease, hypertension etc.)..
Evolutionary medicine and chronic inflammatory state—known and new concepts in pathophysiology

Abstract
During the last 10 years, a series of exciting observations has led to a new theory of pathophysiology using insights from evolutionary biology and neuroendocrine immunology to understand the sequelae of chronic inflammatory disease. According to this theory, disease sequelae can be explained based on redirection of energy-rich fuels from storage organs to the activated immune system. These disease sequelae are highly diverse and include the following: sickness behavior, anorexia, malnutrition, muscle wasting–cachexia, cachectic obesity, insulin resistance with hyperinsulinemia, dyslipidemia, increase of adipose tissue near inflamed tissue, alterations of steroid hormone axes, elevated sympathetic tone and local sympathetic nerve fiber loss, decreased parasympathetic tone, hypertension, inflammation-related anemia, and osteopenia.

Since these disease sequelae can be found in many animal models of chronic inflammatory diseases with mammals (e.g., monkeys, mice, rats, rabbits, etc.), the evolutionary time line goes back at least 70 million years. While the initial version of this theory could explain prominent sequelae of chronic inflammatory disease, it did not however address two features important in the pathogenesis of immune-mediated diseases: the time point when an acute inflammatory disease becomes chronic, and the appearance of hypertension in chronic inflammation. To address these aspects more specifically, a new version of the theory has been developed. This version defines more precisely the moment of transition from acute inflammatory disease to chronic inflammatory disease as a time in which energy stores become empty (complete energy consumption). Depending on the amount of stored energy, this time point can be calculated to be 19–43 days.

Second, the revised theory addresses the mechanisms of essential hypertension since, on the basis of water loss, acute inflammatory diseases can stimulate water retention using a positively selected water retention system (identical to the energy provision system). In chronic smoldering inflammation, however, there is no increased water loss. In contrast, there is increased water generation in inflamed tissue and inflammatory cells, and the activation of the water retention system persists. This combination leads to a net increase of the systemic fluid volume, which is hypothesized to be the basis of essential hypertension (prevalence in adults 22–32%).


Excerpts:-
Why do we have chronic diseases?
genes responsible for energy regulation have been positively selected under conditions without chronic inflammation [8, 10]. Chronic diseases and chronic inflammatory diseases in particular can exert a high negative selection pressure in evolution. Chronic inflammatory diseases can lead to loss of reproduction potential because affected individuals are at strong disadvantage. Such individuals can be excluded or impaired in the competition for food; they can also have low social status in the group and limited choice or availability of sexual partners. In addition, intense, persistent inflammation can inhibit the hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis, leading to impairment of fertility as demonstrated in studies on the effect of chronic inflammatory diseases on fertility despite good medical control.

In some situations, however, the presence of a chronic inflammatory disease may not exert any selective pressure despite its potential severity. Many chronic inflammatory diseases only become manifested in patients at older ages. Because of the short life expectancy in the past, our ancestors have not suffered from the chronic inflammatory diseases that we know today. Their genes have been positively selected for different aspects such as reproduction, muscular work, defense against infections, metabolism, and similar important activities. .....It has been hypothesized that the genes relevant to the etiology of today’s chronic inflammatory diseases have been positively selected for their effects on normal host defense as well as the host response to serious, albeit non-life-threatening, inflammatory episodes in contrast to chronic inflammatory diseases (Table 2) [8]. These issues remain under investigation. Nevertheless, despite uncertainty about their origin, many genes have been linked to an increased risk or more severe forms of chronic inflammatory diseases including polymorphisms for human leukocyte antigens (HLA) and polymorphisms for other elements of the immune system detected by genome-wide association studies. However, these genes were most probably evolutionarily conserved because they supported positive selection at younger ages. This concept was developed in the 1950s in the context of aging research and the theory was called “antagonistic pleiotropy” [7].

An example of antagonistic pleiotropy illustrates these ideas. HLA DR4 (DRB1*04) is a well-known risk factor for rheumatoid arthritis and other chronic autoimmune diseases, but HLA DR4 (DRB1*04) also has a strong negative association with dengue hemorrhagic fever [21]. HLA DR4 (DRB1*04) homozygous individuals are 12 times less likely to develop dengue hemorrhagic fever [21]. Thus, it seems likely that HLA DR4 (DRB1*04) was positively selected to overcome dengue hemorrhagic fever but not to stimulate rheumatoid arthritis and other autoimmune diseases in later life.

Explaining sickeness and immune response stages in sick individuals using evolution:-
..it can be proposed that sickness behavior represents an element of an adaptive program that has been positively selected for transient immune and inflammatory reactions to limit energy utilization for such activities as foraging and courtship behavior [8, 26, 27]. In such a situation, the immune response can not last forever because energy stores run empty.

Furthermore, sickness behavior can restrain activity and, for example, confine the affected individual to a safe place to keep away predators [8, 26, 27]. In considering energy stores available during these responses, it is important to note that storage occurs primarily in fat tissue (12 kg of triglycerides in the body of a contemporary person, 500,000 kJ), as well as in the liver (150 g glycogen, 2.500 kJ) or muscles (300 g glycogen, 5,000 kJ; 6–7 kg muscle protein, 50,000 kJ) [11, 12].

Under conditions of sickness behavior and anorexia without uptake of energy-rich substrates but an increased sickness-related metabolic rate (Tables 1 and 6), the total amount of stored energy would only last for 19 to 43 days in females and 28 to 41 days in males (Table 6). The number is relatively similar for domestic fowl which have an evolutionary distance to Homo sapiens of 300 million years (Table 6). In other words, an acute consuming infectious disease that uses all energy stores can only last until the stores are empty, say 19 to 43 days. Thus, the evolutionarily positively selected increase and decrease of an adaptive immune response must fit into this prespecified time frame. Due to the physical restrictions of energy storage under natural paleolithic conditions, an acute infectious disease may not last much longer than 3 to 6 weeks. It can be hypothesized that energy considerations can help explain the relatively constant time course of an adaptive immune response in the context of acute infection.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just one example among thousands. What positive contribution has intelligence design theory made to our life?o_O
 

Darkstorn

This shows how unique i am.
but this is exactly the opposite of what the scientific method does and certainly doesnt accurately describe science in general. So, what's your point here?

I think he's trying to change reality to adhere to his point, rather than making his point adhere to reality.

I.E To his mind science does work like that, and we're supposed to argue him with that premise being as if real. :D
 

Jeremiahcp

Well-Known Jerk
the exact opposite, practical application v academic authority.


science is a very subjective concept, people can argue their own philisophical definitions all day long, that's why you can even take a course in it. My point is that practical results are the best objective measure of scientific merit

In your other post you were just name dropping, with no clue what any of those individuals thinks about science.

"science is a very subjective concept"

You are hyperbolizing. The scientific method is not very subjective, there are a few gray areas, but for the most part it is explicitly defined. But I understand that people like you want it to be "very subjective", as then you don't have to put forth the effort to learn it, and you can then pretend you know it as well as someone who did invest that time and effort.

"that's why you can even take a course in it"

I think you should take advantage of that aspect.

"My point is that practical results are the best objective measure of scientific "

Now you are engaging in a straw-man, your argument up to now has been that science is based on faith, that was your point.
 
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