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Featured Is eternal punishment just?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by The Transcended Omniverse, May 18, 2017.

  1. The Transcended Omniverse

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    Criminals who have committed the most heinous crimes are executed. I would consider this to actually be a more just punishment than having the criminal endure the suffering of going insane from solitary confinement. In that same sense, wouldn't it be unjust for God to have sinners be tormented in hell for eternity rather than the concept of annihilationism where sinners are destroyed (or, in this case, executed)? But if we are created as eternal spirits, then couldn't God choose to destroy us any way to prevent us from enduring eternal torment? After all, this is God and he can do anything. He can strip us of our eternal nature and, from there, completely destroy us.
     
    #1 The Transcended Omniverse, May 18, 2017
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  2. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Is it just? Of course not, but then this is a god who creates evil and kills babies. So . . . . . . . .

    .

    .
     
  3. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Depends how you define just. If it means conformity to God's will, then, according to Christian theology, it is.
    But according to common understanding, based on a reverence for life and ideas of fairness and proportionality, it is not.

    Personally, I'm not generally in favor of punishment at all. It strikes me as childish vindictiveness -- you hurt me, or flout a rule I support, and I'm going to hurt you -- just to assuage my ire.
     
    #3 Valjean, May 18, 2017
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  4. osgart

    osgart Active Member

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    holy mackerel eternal punishment sounds like a scare tactic.

    I would think God would conquer the hearts of all humans through hell or repentance.

    eternal punishment is a scare tactic I would believe.
     
  5. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Well, It appears that from the scriptures God considers that the ramifications of sins committed by eternal beings (us) are eternal and therefore the resulting consequence is eternal. Remember, the scriptures say that the wages of sin is death and since biblically death is separation from God (the Source of life), the absence of God's life giving power will be empty suffering forever. BTW. this eternal destiny of suffering is a choice one makes when the offer of eternal life freely given by God is refused.
     
  6. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    But don't the scriptures, particularly the OT, depict divine morality as brutal, tribal and vindictive? They seem to justify behavior that seems outrageous by modern standards.
    As for these "scriptures," I'm assuming you refer to the Christian scriptures. There are many other scriptures, from different religious traditions. Have you considered the moral codes these describe?
     
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  7. Carlita

    Carlita Namu Samantabhadra Bodhisattva of good conduct

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    No one deserves death.
    No one deserves eternal punishment.

    People make decisions and it causes ripple effects which could be consequences of their deeds. Punishment, if one likes, isn't something that is needed. It's just a human way of saying one is responsible for their actions. It is eternal because once we make an action, it will always affect who and what was affected by that action.

    No one deserves consequences for their actions. Hitler and a three year old child alike. That's verbal capital punishment. Help people make better choices. Not everything we do has bad consequences. There are good ones too.
     
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  8. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Yeah, kind of like poking out the eyes of one's infant children with a sharp sick because they pooped in their pants.

    Sounds great as long as one keeps telling oneself that everyone has heard and understood the offer.

    .


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  9. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    This sounds like a simplistic god.

    I've been living separate from any and all gods most of my life. No complaints yet.

    I have never received an offer from a god. No god has ever communicated with me.

    Naturally, I refuse the unsupported claims from men claiming to speak for or through a god. Don't you?
     
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  10. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I don't see the OT scriptures so much as depicting morality, rather as a narrative depicting wicked human behavior. Yes, I have considered the moral codes in scriptures of other religious traditions, but I am a Christian for a reason other than moral codes.
     
  11. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I don't see any connection between what I said and your response.
     
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  12. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Condemning humans to suffer forever for something they couldn't help doing during a mere fraction of eternity is like condemning one's children to a lifetime of blindness for something they couldn't help doing during a mere moment of childhood development.


    Saying that "this eternal destiny of suffering is a choice one makes when the offer of eternal life freely given by God is refused" assumes that everyone got the offer, (which they didn't) or were convinced of its merit (which they weren't). And I see your claim here, which ignores these mitigating factors, as a way of justifying god's sentence of eternal suffering.

    .
     
    #12 Skwim, May 19, 2017
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
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  13. joe1776

    joe1776 Active Member

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    If a Creator exists, we can expect it to be capable of unconditional love. In that case, a fair punishment meant as instruction seems reasonable, but eternal punishment for any reason is absurd. And the idea of eternal punishment for non-belief is so unjust that I wonder how anyone can feel that a god like that deserves worship.
     
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  14. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    That's where the "IGNORE' button comes in. Christians survive as such because they're able to ignore all the noxious elements of their god, and focus on just the good stuff. Hardly a commendable way to go through life, but as long as they don't infringe on my life they can believe however they like. Of course when they get out of hand and try to convince others of their "truth" it can be fun to disabuse them of the notion.

    BTW, welcome to RF.

    .
     
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  15. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    But the OT is all about moral behavior and propriety. A more comprehensive compendium of propriety can hardly be imagined: what to wear, what to eat; how to treat foreigners, relatives, concubines, wives, children and slaves; how to behave, which attitudes and thought-crimes require stoning, and which fines or flogging.
    Modern Christianity completely ignores OT morality, seeks to sweep it under the rug.
     
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  16. thepersianpuzzle

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    I am currently searching Catholic and other religions for purgatory on earth while living theories?
    Can anyone aid me please?
     
  17. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    I've seen no such offer from any god.

    I've seen it many times from people claiming to speak for various gods, but never in a way where they could actually back up what they're saying.

    If the punishment for not accepting God is eternal punishment, then the consequences of crappy evangelizing are also eternal. What punishment should bad evangelizers get?
     
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  18. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Come back again and tell me God is simplistic...after YOU create a universe, a star, a brand new, previously unknown color, a tree, or even a single leaf.



    You may think you are living apart from God, yet the scriptures state you, as well as everyone is dependent upon God each moment, for even every breath ...
    Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it... Isaiah 42:5

    .. so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; .for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring. Acts 17:27-28

    And according to the words of Jesus, God the Father sustains and bestows blessings of life upon you...

    that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Matthew 5:45


    The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Psalm 19:1-6

    For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20
     
  19. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I think when reading the Bible it is important to ask...who, what, when, where, and why and rightly divide the Word (2Timothy 2:15). Many of the detailed regulations of the OT you have listed pertaining to dress, the proper foods to eat, etc were specific to Israel, for specific reasons, and for a specific time. I am not denying that the OT contains moral instruction, yet I think it is important to differentiate between God;s moral instruction and the immoral behavior often demonstrated by the human beings.
     
  20. rusra02

    rusra02 Well-Known Member
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    The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. (Romans 6:23) When sentencing Adam for his sin, Jehovah told him; "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) Adam died and returned to the ground;not to a fiery place of torment. The teaching of conscious torment in hellfire, IMO, is a despicable slander against the true God.
     
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