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Featured Is Deuteronomy 18:18 Jesus?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Teritos, Apr 3, 2021.

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  1. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    To understand this, you must look at the whole Bible. Already in the OT God uses this title, see Isaiah 43:10. "I am He" is known among the Jews as a unique title of God, when Jesus said "I am He" in another place, several hundreds of people fell down before Him, see John 18:5-6. The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is the creator of all things, see John 1:3, John 1:10 and Colossians 1:16-20.
    Matthew 26:28
    For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
    Mark 10:45
    For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.
    Hebrews 9:22
    And without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

    Paul not only says in this passage that God is in Jesus, which in itself is nothing unusual, but he also uses a Greek word that you will not find anywhere else in the Bible, he uses the word "somatikos" which means "incarnation", Paul says in Colossians 2:9 that God became flesh, and this incarnation is Jesus(John 1:1, John 1:14). No one has ever seen God, but by God becoming flesh, He has finally become visible through His only Son, see John 1:18.
    According to the Bible, all prophets are sinners, for example David, who committed adultery and then murdered Uriah to hide the adultery. He committed adultery and murder, which is the punishment of death according to the law, so God killed David's son so that David could escape punishment. Solomon, the wisest king of Israel, was an idolater. Samson was a fornicator... No prophet in the Bible is without sin, only Jesus is, because Jesus is God and only God is perfect.
    The baptismal formula is present in the oldest Bibles and is authentic according to the Text Critical Version of the New Testament.
     
    #101 Teritos, Apr 7, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  2. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Even hearing God's voice is questionable. The reason people believed Moses is because they heard God's voice, they saw no form speaking to them, and they experienced the exodus, the plagues, and the miracles in the desert.
     
  3. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    If they heard God's voice, why is Moses relaying God's commandments? Did the voice they heard say to listen to Moses such that he will become the vessel for God's voice? Why? Why doesn't God just speak to them all at all times if he did at one time?

    Where does mediation through Moses come in? And why? What's the point of a written testimony as a vessel for what clearly functioned prior to the written vessel? Why are there two testimonies: an oral testimony and a written; and what's their interrelationship? Why is the written testimony a rod with a lamb's flesh, or skin, dangling from it?

    For non-Jews, the Torah scroll was originally a wooden staff, or rod (literally called the "tree of life"), with lamb's skin nailed to it, wrapped around it, with the written revelation written on the lamb's skin. And since Rabbi Samson Hirsch relates the written word with death, technically speaking, the revelation nailed to the wood, dangling from the wood, in its death (Paul's "dead letter"), would have to be lifted from the grave to speak a living word of God to the hearer. Whatever is written on the scroll must be heard in the heart of the hearer after the word of God ----exiled from heaven (nailed to the wood) ----is lifted up to heaven, having been exiled down here, before we down here, could hear a voice from up there.



    John
     
    #103 John D. Brey, Apr 7, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  4. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    This is answered in Exodus 20 at Mt. Sinai:

    15 And all the people saw the voices and the torches, the sound of the shofar, and the smoking mountain, and the people saw and trembled; so they stood from afar.
    16 They said to Moses, "You speak with us, and we will hear, but let God not speak with us lest we die."
    ^^ irrelevant. This has nothing to do with worshipping a Man-King-God named Jesus. When Jesus advocated for himself in this manner he's an apostate and cannot be the prophet described in Deut 18:18.
     
  5. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    People take the Bible out of context because they want to discredit is because believing that we need a Savior and are sinners is not convenient for our pride. People want to be their own god. The Bible is consistent with the theme of the Trinity.

    Jesus said in Matthew 28:18-20.

    When Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

    To understand what a Bible verse means you have to know the context. Luke 24:46-47 is not in the context of Jesus speaking. Matthew 28:18-20 is in the context of Jesus speaking.

    And He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem.
     
  6. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Why would they fear death from God speaking to them if they'd already heard God's voice and lived? Secondarily, are they not, in their fear of God, making Moses a mediator for God's voice; a vessel through which God's voice must pass before reaching their ear? . . . If so, then why don't they fear Moses misinterpreting God, or even losing his temper at them and saying something God didn't want him to say? Aren't they making Moses something like what some Christians make Jesus: a divine avatar through which God's voice passes on its way to lesser mortals?



    John
     
  7. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    The prophet in Deuteronomy 18:18 is supposed to be a type, or archetype, of Moses. As such, it seems even in your version of Jesus he fits the bill nicely, since, though I don't have any of them at my fingertips, some really great Jewish sages kinda wring their hands at numerous places in the Torah where Moses begins relaying God's word to Israel in the third person and then slips, if that words not too connotative, into the first person. In this sense Jesus would just be doing what he has to do if he's very much like Moses.

    Perhaps importantly, Moses doesn't even seem to be aware that he's doing it while Jesus is. And perhaps picking up on these odd undertakings (by God's apparent underlings) Cecil B. DeMille made the voice of God a deeper shade of the voice of Charleston Heston (Moses as it were). Perhaps ironically Charleston Heston's voice speaks for Jesus too in his popular reading of the Bible.

    We've already covered the verses where God clearly and unambiguously tells Moses to part the sea, even though later it turns out that Moses is perhaps going through the motions, like an avatar, or actor, as it were (perhaps Moses is playing Heston in the book, and Heston is playing Moses and God in the movie), while God, behind the scenes, is doing the deed.

    Would the sea have parted if Moses didn't lift his rod? And did Israel not glorify that rod, as though it parted the sea, in the song they sung after the salvation? . . . . Don't answer that. It's too transparently a trick question.



    John
     
    #107 John D. Brey, Apr 7, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  8. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    .
    None of this is relevant. Moses is not worshipped.
    No... as I said he is an apostate.

    No... Jesus was advocating for himself as God incarnate. Chrstianity describes Jesus as a Man-God-King same as Pharaoh. Here's a list of people who have been claimed to be God incarnate. Moses isn't on the list.

    List of people who have been considered deities - Wikipedia

    Back to this?

    Irelevant. Moses doesn't claim to be God incarnate. No one treats him as God incarnate. I'm done discussing it with you.

    Thanks,
     
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  9. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . Ok. Back to my soliloquy. <s>



    John
     
  10. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    This is simply preparation for the day Moses will no longer lead and his successor will take over. The prophet is Joshua.
     
  11. JerryMyers

    JerryMyers Member

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    When God said “I am He”, He’s saying He is THE ONLY God, and when Jesus said “I am he” in John 18:5, he was responding to the soldiers and acknowledging that he
    IS Jesus of Nazareth, NOT that he’s God – try to read in context instead of trying to make Jesus God which, by Jesus own words, clearly he’s not.

    Nope, the Bible never said Jesus is the creator of all things, only your church and preachers said that!.

    Firstly, in John 1, ‘The Word of God’ is not a person, but it’s called ‘the Word of God’ because it was God who uttered it. The Word was with God and the Word was God is no different than your word was with you and your word was you when you uttered it. After that, the word you have uttered is no longer with you and is no longer you because that moment has already passed. Why do you think John 1:1 is in the past-tensed ?? If the ‘Word of God’ is Jesus and that supposed to make him God since the beginning of time, then John 1:1 would have said ‘the Word IS with God and the Word IS God’, now, wouldn’t it ??

    Secondly, the ‘Word’ in John 1 was translated from the Greek word ‘logos’ and it is a masculine noun and so, at times, it was also referred to as a ‘he/him'. In John 1:3, it was NOT Jesus who created all things, but it was God who created all things and God creates by just uttering a word which is the ‘he’ in John 1:3.

    Are you kidding me ?? These verses you quoted mean Jesus is saying he came to die for the sin of others ??? Anyway, let’s go through them :

    Matthew 26:28 - The term ‘my blood’ in Matthew 26:28 is a reference to life and not blood in its literal sense, as Leviticus 17:14 clearly states “because the life of every creature is its blood”. So, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins” really mean that Jesus had committed his life to bring the righteousness of God to the people so that they can repent and receive forgiveness from God. This is like a medical college professor saying to his students “This is my blood of the education covenant I made, which is poured out for many for your success in the medical field” – does that mean the professor must be killed for his blood to the success of his students ??

    Mark 10:45 - To believe Jesus came to die for all mankind's sin as a payment of ransom to God is ridiculous as God doesn’t hold ransom on anyone. When Jesus said he came “to give his life as a ransom for many”, he was speaking figuratively to mean he had come to commit his whole life to save sinners from their sinning ways - he did that not by dying, he did that through his preaching, and that too, only if they listen to him. It would be illogical to take Jesus’ words in Mark 10:45 literally, especially when in Matthew 7:21 Jesus said that only those who do the Will of God will enter the kingdom of heaven. He NEVER said only those who believe he came to die for the sin of all mankind will enter the kingdom of heaven, now did he ??

    Hebrews 9:22 – Was these the words of Jesus ?? If they are not from Jesus, then, you should question those words. Moreover, if Jesus really believes with no shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness, then, Jesus will definitely say so in the Lord’s Prayer when he taught his apostles how to pray. In the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus taught his apostles to pray DIRECTLY to God Al-Mighty, NOT to him or through him. He told you to seek forgiveness from God, NOT from him or through him and he also told you to forgive the sin of others who may have wronged you. Was shedding of blood ever mentioned for the forgiveness of sin in the Lord’s Prayer ?? NOPE, so why are you listening to the words of other people and ignoring Jesus’ words ??

    Other than God Himself, the next most reliable words are what Jesus said and Jesus himself had never said he’s God or God-incarnated, only other people said that. It’s no wonder Jesus when asked “Are you then the Son of God (God the Son)”, and Jesus said, “You say that I am”. In other words, Jesus is saying he has never claimed he’s God, God the Son, or God-incarnated, only other people said that.

    Yup, only in the Bible you will find stories of prophets who sin !! Then again, were they already prophets of God when they committed sin ??

    ..And are you sure according to the Bible, “God killed David's son so that David could escape punishment”?? In Ezekial 18:20, God said “The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child”. Really, how can you even trust the Bible with such conflicting nature of God ??


    If you say the oldest baptismal formula is in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, then these notable Christian sources disagree with you:

    The Catholic University of America in Washington, D. C. 1923, New Testament Studies Number 5:
    “…….. Is it possible to reconcile these facts with the belief that Christ commanded his disciples to baptize in the triune form? Had Christ given such a command, it is urged, the Apostolic Church would have followed him, and we should have some trace of this obedience in the New Testament. No such trace can be found. The only explanation of this silence, according to the anti-traditional view, is this the short christological (Jesus Name) formula was (the) original, and the longer triune formula was a later development.

    The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, page 2637, Under “Baptism,” says:
    Matthew 28:19 in particular only canonizes a later ecclesiastical situation, that its universalism is contrary to the facts of early Christian history, and its Trinitarian formula (is) foreign to the mouth of Jesus.

    The Jerusalem Bible, a scholarly Catholic work, states:
    It may be that this formula, (Triune Matthew 28:19) so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (Man-made) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community. It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing “in the name of Jesus,”.

    The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, page 275:
    It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are not the ipsissima verba [exact words] of Jesus, but...a later liturgical addition.

    The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition, volume II, page 263:
    The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.

    The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, page 275:
    It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are not the ipsissima verba [exact words] of Jesus, but...a later liturgical addition.
     
  12. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    I think I have lost the thread here. Yes I do believe the slain lamb was a part
    of the old Jewish covenant.
    And I believe Zechariah was speaking of Jesus - the lowly man on the donkey,
    the one pierced. The one ruling over the nations.
     
  13. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Short review: We have here two issues:

    1. You believe that the Paschal lamb is part of the Jewish covenant with God. I asked you to explain why you believe that is, considering the term covenant doesn't appear in that whole section of the story. I await your explanation.

    2. We were discussing my views of Mashiach in Zechariah. First you brought the verses about his ruling from sea to sea. Then you brought his being the lowly man on the donkey. To these two I agree. Then you jumped ahead to Zecharaiah 12 without informing me and immediately hopped to the question I thought you were aiming for all along, and really, have no idea why you dragged it on for so many posts, which is: Is the man in Zechariah 12:10 Mashiach?

    To which I'll answer: No, he's not. In fact, it's inconclusive whether that fallen person is only one man or many people killed during the war prophesized by Zechariah. But even if it's just one man, it's still not the Mashiach spoken about by Zechariah in other parts of his book. I assume you believe that this is Jesus because Christianity draws similarities between this verse and the supposed life, death and resurrection of Jesus, but that seems to me to really be ignoring the whole context of the chapter. Zechariah is describing a war between Judea and the nations. This war leads to the death of this person. Did the Jesus of the NT die in an ancient world war? He did not. Did all of Judea mourn his death? They did not. Is there peace in the world? No, there is not. Are there still false prophets in the world? Yes, there are. These are all things described in Zechariah as supposed to happen on the day of the death of this person/these people, or immediately after. These did not happen when Jesus died. In fact, even if he was, somehow resurrected, these things still did not happen.
     
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  14. JerryMyers

    JerryMyers Member

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    Yes, Trinitarians do take the Bible out of context in their futile attempts to make Jesus God.
    Fact is the only True Savior is God, NOT Jesus. Besides God there is no other true savior, so said God – “I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me, there is no savior.” (Isaiah 34:11).

    Don’t be confused between the only true Savior God and the savior, Jesus. The only true Savior God can save anyone He pleases. Jesus, on the other hand, can only save those who listen to him. Now, you can try to convince yourself that the Bible is consistent with the theme of the trinity, but the fact is the words of God and His prophet, Jesus Christ, in your own scripture, said otherwise.

    Well, do you know the consensus of even the most conservative scholars is that this baptismal formula ‘in the name of the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost’ in Matthew 28:19 was added to the original Matthew at a very late point in time, after the adoption of the trinity doctrine – that’s why you can find this baptismal formula only in Matthew 28 and nowhere else in the whole Bible.

    Who told you Luke 24:46-47 is not in the context of Jesus speaking ?? Or are you implying the disciples are lying about what Jesus told them ??

    As for Matthew 28:19, you don’t really need context to know the baptismal formula as spoken by Jesus in that passage is a fabrication as that formula is not found anywhere else in the Bible.

    Firstly, in saying ‘the Christ will suffer’ means Jesus was equating himself to all the prophets before him who endure sufferings too and some are even killed, in bringing the Message of God to the people.

    Secondly, Jesus’ usage of the third day as the day he will be raised to life is not a reference of him rising from the dead on the third day of a 3 days period, BUT it was a reference to the Day of the Resurrection when God will resurrect all the dead on the third day. Jesus, in fact, was quoting an Old Testament verse – “After two days He will revive us; on the third day He (God) will raise us up, that we may live before Him” – Hosea 6:2.

    Thirdly, in your quote above, note that Jesus said “and in His name, repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed…”. Did Jesus forgot to add ‘in the name of the Father and in the name of the Holy Ghost’ ?? And did Jesus also forgotten to mention his blood and his death for the forgiveness of sin will be proclaimed to all nations ?? Stop listening to what other people said, listen to what Jesus said in your own scripture.
     
  15. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is our Creator and Savior. He died for every single person and wants all to come to Him. People don't want to believe in the Trinity because believing that Jesus is God is not convenient for our sinful nature. People want to be their own God.
     
  16. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Why did God protect them [at Passover] through [the lamb's] blood? So that He should remember in their favour the blood of Abraham's circumcision.

    Midrash Rabbah,
    Exodus, XVII, 3.​

    Going further than this, the Talmud says both bloods were placed on the doorpost at Passover, circumcision blood, and lamb's blood, such that no person who accepts the authority of the Talmud should ever question that the lamb's blood and the blood of the covenant (hatafat dam brit) represent the same thing for those whom the mohel cuts more than skin deep.



    John
     
    #116 John D. Brey, Apr 9, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
  17. JerryMyers

    JerryMyers Member

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    If you don’t believe what God had said of Himself in Isaiah 34:11 and you don’t believe the words of Jesus in John 17:3 where he told you who the true God is, I guess you just make Satan his day for he has succeeded in diverting your worship away from the true God, who Jesus himself worship and pray to.

    Isn’t that ironic, the man who even told Satan to worship and serve only the one true God, and teach you to pray and seek forgiveness only from the one true God, as in the Lord’s Prayer, ended up being worshipped as God himself !! I guess this must be so frustrating to Jesus and that’s why he prayed to God and said ‘Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent”. BUT you don’t want to believe Jesus’ words as you rather believe the words of other people and that’s why you STILL do not know who the true God is.
     
  18. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is the one true God. Jesus said in John 8:58 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Jesus prayed to the Father in Luke 22:42 where he said Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. Luke 22:42 supports the Trinity because it shows that the wills of the Father and Son are in alignment. When Jesus said our father who art in heaven he wasn't saying that he wasn't the Son of God because he was talking about God the Father.
     
  19. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Actually, much of the NT is Gentile. Paul is a Jew, but he is also heavily influenced by Greek thought. The author of Luke/Acts was most likely Gentile. Some of the letters attributed to Paul were written by Gentile students or followers of his.
     
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    It’s always a critical exegetical mistake to place Jesus in any Hebrew prophecy.
     
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