lukethethird
unknown member
Debating anything 'God' is pointless.
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Is debating pointless?
- Thread starter Jollybear
- Start date
Yerda
Veteran Member
It was a half-joking joke.
On the one hand one may learn something.
On the other hand it helps to pass the time, and, for some, in a thoughtful way.
On the third hand, it beats daytime TV regardless.
Debate -- or what passes for debate on the internet -- is relatively worthless to me. It seems to mostly consist in either two equally uniformed people disputing an issue neither one has a clear grasp of, or an uniformed person disputing an issue with a better informed person -- in which latter case, the conversation gets reduced to the lowest common denominator.
I think most people who debate on the internet do so to entertain themselves, or do so out of a misguided notion they are proving a point, making a difference.
I find merit in someone explaining their views to me, but with each passing year I find less and less merit in someone trying to convince me of their views. It's just a sad truth that most people can't tell folks much of anything they haven't already heard, or tell folks much of anything that will improve their understanding of the world. And -- so far as I can see -- the majority of people who debate on the internet fall into the category of people whose opinions are for one or the other of those reasons more or less worthless to others.
I think most people who debate on the internet do so to entertain themselves, or do so out of a misguided notion they are proving a point, making a difference.
I find merit in someone explaining their views to me, but with each passing year I find less and less merit in someone trying to convince me of their views. It's just a sad truth that most people can't tell folks much of anything they haven't already heard, or tell folks much of anything that will improve their understanding of the world. And -- so far as I can see -- the majority of people who debate on the internet fall into the category of people whose opinions are for one or the other of those reasons more or less worthless to others.
That's certainly true.
Jollybear
Hey
Ok, i gotcha.
It's a win for me if I can make 1 believer in a hundred think....
"Hey, here's an atheist I don't hate.
Maybe they're not 100% such unfriendly jerks after all.
Still jerks, but a little bit likeable."
Jollybear
Hey
In my case, i want someone to try to convince me of there view. BUT, it will take alot of work, and even then i may not be convinced.
lukethethird
unknown member
There are no debates on this forum that I am aware of, just discussion.
I'm a believer, and I never did hate you, ya bacon-breathed drooling old haggis eater wannabe Canuckistanian.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I suspect - though it's hard to verify - that I think people in internet debates about religious issues have their minds changed more often that it might seem.
I'm not talking about full-blown converting or deconverting people, but I do think that the right argument can sometimes plant a seed that grows into doubt on a particular issue, which then ends up with the person's mind being changed on something.
... but people still generally want to save face, so they don't necessarily want to admit this to their opponent. But the internet makes it easy for a person to abandon one online persona and adopt another. This means that - I think - there's a halfway decent chance that someone who
used to be, say, an ardent young earth creationist on some other site might show up here as a day-age creationist or a supporter of theistic evolution without any hint that they've ever been anything else.
In many cases yes..
You need to know whether the other person is open to accept the truth or not..
So you need to first know what type of person you are talking with..
Many people have doubts about their religion, and the only way for them to feel secure is to imagine that they have defeated you in a debate!
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is true. A couple of my atheist friends on another forum have now come around to saying that there might be or there probably is a god... just not the Christian God, they say.... They do not believe in the Baha'i God either but no matter. God is God.
I stopped debating with these guys a long time ago and now we are just friends exchanging ideas. They know I am not trying to convince them of anything so they feel safe talking to me.
Then there is this one atheist, the one that has precipitated several of the threads I started on this forum asking questions of atheists.... No matter how many times I tell him I do not want to be in an argument with him, he tries to make everything into an argument, and he thinks he has won all of them.
But the things he says are so ridiculous that they would make other atheists cringe, since they are so illogical. For example, he says that god cannot be infallible because tapeworms exist and that would have to be a mistake on the part of god. Even after I pointed him to some scientific websites that said how tapeworms could be beneficial to health, he told me I was wrong. He said that I failed in my effort and the only thing tapeworms could be good for would be evidence that there is no god.
He also says that god does not exist because everyone in the world has not received direct communication from god. I asked him how it could be verified that they actually got communication from god and he admitted they could not verify it came from god, but he said it would not matter as long as they believed it came from god.
So I asked him how that is any different from a Messenger getting a message that cannot be verified to have come from God and he said that since everyone would believe it came from god there would be nobody to refute them... So then I told him that if it was not really God communicating to everyone then that could mean that everyone would be believing in a god that does not exist at all...
I have explained why he is illogical so many times, for five years, but he still does not understand basic logic, although he thinks he is the king of logic. Of course god could exist and communicate with Messengers or communicate some other way or not communicate at all; there are may possibilities, not just one. And of course one logical possibility is that god does not exist, so at least he got that right. However the reason he does not think god exists is so hokey.
If he said that he does not believe God exists because there is no evidence I would accept that, just as I accept that from atheists on this forum; or if he said he did not believe God exists because of all the suffering in the world, that is a valid argument. I could easily offer rebuttals to those arguments from my viewpoint, but I can also understand why they are not acceptable to atheists, since their viewpoints are just as valid.
But this argument that god does not exist because god does not communicate directly to everyone is not a valid argument, since there is no reason to think that if god existed god would communicate directly to everyone. This atheist also insists that if god exists god would want everyone to believe in Him but he has no evidence of that, just a personal opinion. God might want everyone to believe in Him but God does not require everyone to believe in Him and God does not need anyone to believe in Him, since god does not need anything from humans.
I have admitted to this atheist that he was right whenever he was right, when he pointed out things I had not thought of before; but after five years, it is only within the last week that he has admitted I might be right about some things, although he still holds to his basic positions about god making mistakes, god being evil, and god not communicating as a "real God" would -- directly to everyone in the world.
If I have not lost my mind yet, I probably never will.
I have to come back to this forum to assure myself that atheists are rational....
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
It's too much work to go back years to find a single post, or sentence, but I can tell you that single sentences have broken through the ice for me.
I came to RF a Pantheist, and am now a Deist.
A Deist member who mentioned being an atheist as well bust open the divide between Theism and Deism for me.
Heated debates with several members developed my opinion about what John the Baptist was doing.
A single post with a reference to the Numismatic Society of Australia (or Melbourne!) intyroduced details of the Great Temple's coinage, which threw doubt upon what coin was shown to Jesus in the Temple confrontation.
One member simply wrote 'Hosea's Chant' in answer to a post of mine, which totally diverted everything I ever thought about Jesus.
It has gone on......... Some of these details I did store on a main frame, but even to extract those for you now would take time. I don't think you need to see the actual posts..... true?
Another bunch of enormously long Threads burst any bubbles that I might ever have had for the Bahai Faith..... (my late wife was a Bahai) ......for me it is now devious deception.
Debating with extreme atheists showed me that extreme atheism is in my opinion shallow....... (please don't ask for details or this thread will explode!
)
Jumi
Well-Known Member
Convincing others or learning something specific. I don't think many people will be convinced of something they aren't already believing in. I noticed that things become a lot easier by just saying what I think and letting the discussions flow naturally.
Jumi
Well-Known Member
Would you say bad or unconvincing debunking also is beneficial? Or does it actually help strengthen the belief?I disagree.
Jollybear
Hey
Would you like there to be debates on here?
Jollybear
Hey
I know in my case if i change my mind, ill just say so. In fact, sometimes in a debate, if i said something that was a mistake, i HAVE said it was a mistake and i give them the point.
I have ZERO problem being honest. I can EASILY go from DIE HEART view on one thing and then BANG! Switch immediately if i get that epepheny. I dont have a problem with it.
Jollybear
Hey
It's too much work to go back years to find a single post, or sentence, but I can tell you that single sentences have broken through the ice for me.
I came to RF a Pantheist, and am now a Deist.
A Deist member who mentioned being an atheist as well bust open the divide between Theism and Deism for me.
Heated debates with several members developed my opinion about what John the Baptist was doing.
A single post with a reference to the Numismatic Society of Australia (or Melbourne!) intyroduced details of the Great Temple's coinage, which threw doubt upon what coin was shown to Jesus in the Temple confrontation.
One member simply wrote 'Hosea's Chant' in answer to a post of mine, which totally diverted everything I ever thought about Jesus.
It has gone on......... Some of these details I did store on a main frame, but even to extract those for you now would take time. I don't think you need to see the actual posts..... true?
Another bunch of enormously long Threads burst any bubbles that I might ever have had for the Bahai Faith..... (my late wife was a Bahai) ......for me it is now devious deception.
Debating with extreme atheists showed me that extreme atheism is in my opinion shallow....... (please don't ask for details or this thread will explode!
Interesting stuff. Thanks for the answer. And yes, true, i dont need the actual post. I do believe you.