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Featured Is Death Final?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Earthling, Jun 15, 2018.

  1. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    It seem s to me that what you are really saying is that we should be comfortable with death, and I agree.

    What I disagree with is the statement that what scripture says and what makes sense when relating to the world are completely different. The reason for me disagreeing is multiple. First, it's a blanket statement that isn't necessarily relevant or true. Scripture may say that stealing, murdering, raping, lying is bad and the world may agree. Scripture may also say reincarnation and the caste system is true and the world, at least the part of the world where the scripture is that says it, agrees. Right or wrong.

    The same, of course, applies to resurrection, or hell.

    At this point I would have to also point out that, no matter what we believe regarding the finality of death, we can't be absolutely sure of it. At least, not at this point.

    One other thing which your post, for some reason, reminded me of. Prayer.

    When my younger brother was dying of cancer the people he worked with prayed for him not to die. I did not. Why? Because it's nonsensical to pray to God something that is against his will. We all get sick, we all die, because that is God's will. So why ask God for something that is against h is will?
     
  2. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    I don't think so, at least not as such, but it does indicate that some will choose everlasting life and some would choose everlasting destruction, which is death. And these people know the difference. I'm talking about those after the first resurrection mentioned in the book of Revelation.

    Well, consider the demons. They know and yet shudder. The demons , or disobedient angels were created an indeterminate time in the very distant past. Millions, maybe billions or trillions of years ago, and they know they will be destroyed some time in the future. They had to have seen that coming one would think.
     
  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Do you believe there isnt? :eek:

    Edit. All the verses on heaven and hell, no death of the soul (whatever the condition), and, what you (JW) believe about god making the earth back where it was when adam and eve, doesnt exist?

    God will bring billions back from death by means of a resurrection. (Acts 24:15) However, those who refuse to learn God’s ways after being raised to life will be destroyed forever with no hope of a resurrectiona.—Revelation 20:14, 15.

    Earth. God created the earth to be mankind’s eternal home. (Psalm 104:5; 115:16;Ecclesiastes 1:4) God will bless obedient people with perfect health and everlasting life in an earthly paradise.—Psalm 37:11,34.

    Life after death

    I never heard a christian denomination as a whole, JW included, that does not believe in any concept of life after death.

    Unless you have better verses?

    (Remember, Im not christian. Im like a person who is at a sports event but doesnt have a favorite team. I cheer who wins and who made a pass that makes sense to the game without siding on either team to disprove the other.)
     
    #23 Unveiled Artist, Jun 16, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
  4. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    Well. I don't know what to say. I agree with most of it but the scallywag in me wants to argue the contradiction in science at least to some degree. A dead person can be revived. Not entirely dissimilar to the account at 2 Kings 4:32-34. Is that stretching it? I suppose it is. Is it possible that in the future science could resurrect (which simply means raise) the dead, even if they have been dead great periods of time?

    Probably not.

    OK, maybe I should keep the skallywag within me at bay.
     
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  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    My condollences with your brother. I think this also helps with my point. Prayer, scripture, and belief in god helps a person handle death. If we knew about death, we would not need god to console us. Would we pray or look to god for someone who stubed their toe? Broken, taken off, or stubed, there is a healing process involved to which no god nor prayer needs to be for nature to run its course. Unless there is proof of god (making a point), believers can only assume or believe god exists as part of the healing process (such as death).

    Scripture is based on what writers and people then made sense of the world around them. In their environment and time period they, too, believed in god and depended on people such as prophets to explain who god is.

    The reality is death. People throughout many cultures try to make sense of death which they all believe is unknown.

    Yet, we assume that since we dont see a tree fall in the forest without us there, we dont know if it makes a sound. Its a philosophical and Zen question, for sure, but why would we think there isnt a sound?

    What exactly is the reason we think sound and gravity doesnt work unless we are around it to witness it? Laws of nature isnt dependent on us.

    Same as death. Its nice to believe we dont know if the tree makes a sound, but without a brain (flesh), mind (translation of nerve impulses), soul (personality), nor spirit (energy), what exactly is there to exist when, like the fact of gravity, naturally dies?

    How does death excape the laws of nature but sound and gravity and pain do not?
     
    #25 Unveiled Artist, Jun 16, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
  6. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The resurrection is another topic in its own right of course, so its good to avoid wandering too far.

    It seems to me, that the different Jewish sects such as the Pharisees and Saducees disagreed strongly about life after death.

    What are the differences between the Sadducees and Pharisees?

    The NT brought our understanding to a new level.

    Increasingly there are differences of opinion about what happens after we die amonsgt the followers of Christ.

    The resurrection narrative seems to be both the key that unlocks a better understanding or a dense cloud that can obscure the sun of reality from shining.

    In that sense we can't really avoid discussing the resurrection if we are investigating what the bible teaches about life after death.

    So what's this itch you want to scratch but feel you can't? lol
     
  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    But we die. All of that mentioned are desires to keep earthly comfort. Things decay. People. Things. All nature. How are we the exception?
     
  8. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Everything that exists, exists as an expression of energy, being governed by forces from within it that we do not understand. And we humans cannot even detect all the different existential manifestations and expressions of this energy. So there could be energy phenomena that we are as yet completely unaware, that might resemble what could be called "spirit" energy. Perhaps coalesced and defined within a life form, but remaining extant after that life form has itself ceased and disintegrated.
     
  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    That doesnt make sense. You have assessment and sh/tle cant think of others. I think its if its derogatory and stands on its own. Dont know if they judge it by context. It does distort what youre trying to say.

    Pacific northwest city, located at and around; Latitude: 47° 37.216' N, Longitude: 122° 19.75' W

    n. 1. A shuttle.
    a. 1. Wavering; unsettled; inconstant.

    Its the word not context
     
    #29 Unveiled Artist, Jun 16, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
  10. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    I don't know. It has never made sense to me. Maybe it's because I was raised to believe that no words were obscene. Intellectuals and the religious tend to disagree with me on that point.

    The apostle Paul said not to speak the obscene, but what is obscene? Take the Greek word katabole, which means to lay or cast down as in laying down the seed. The same as the modern day so called F word. It's used in the Bible as in the "founding of the world" Luke 11:50 which refers to Adam and Eve's first offspring. Also with Sarah at Hebrews 11:11.

    What is obscene about procreation?
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Things like murder etc was around before scripture even was breathed into the air. Its very very new compared to The Dharma and new age compared to hindu scriptures. Its basically telling people what authors back when observed the world and lessons related to the observations.

    Whats interesting is we wouldnt go "back" to using the first brain surgical methods to cure a condition. Half of us really like using our clocks as opposed to the suns gaze to determine the time we have our inteviews.

    Yet, millions of people depend on the bible (and other scriptures) as if they were written yesterday and expect ourselves to understand thought processes thousands of years before our existence. Symbolism doesnt exclude this. Why would one want to live off the morals of someone else's death and suffering. People probably did then; politics. But today, we make it our morals???

    My great aunt, before she died years ago, lived in the country with no electivity and any other modern applience. She felt she is living like christ by even changing her lifestyle.

    I understand why people want to be saved. I dont understand why people die for their beliefs. As my friend says, "god is my life."
     
  12. WalterTrull

    WalterTrull Godfella

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    I agree with your direction. Not sure about all the handles. I guess my internal language, while basically the same, is of a different dialect.
     
  13. WalterTrull

    WalterTrull Godfella

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    Yeah. That's gotta be another thread, but yeah, consider them. There are sooo many beasts in the sea. We have to learn which ones to feed. Sometimes that's kinda painful.
     
  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Yeah. Its mostly dirogatory. Like the N word has its political issues. It was that, then negro, black, then african american. All of which are either derogatory or the last two totally incorrect (unless someone is from Africa and is an American Citizen).

    I dont know the history of words, but I donr use curse words. I guess it really doesnt hurt anyone to use alternatives. Unless they are making a point using the words in its non offensive context or they use the words in everyday language, which I had a friend who did that, Id say to anyone use another term.

    I dont see it a problem when used in context. But I dont understand why blurting is needed if the words are in other nice words.

    Aka dont know.
     
  15. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Nope, there is a separate area for Biblical debates. I think this is more open, but I'm not a mod so...
     
  16. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    I read it's translations made by Christians from the Greek or Hebrew to Syriac. There's some pretty cool information about it in wikipedia.

    It's quite silly, but you can avoid it by placing something in between like Pes h i t ta.
     
  17. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    In your mentioning in the following books you made mention of the (Resurrection of the dead)

    Daniel 12:1 / Matthew 25:46; 9:24-25 / Mark 5:39-42 / Luke 20:37 / John 5:28-29 / Acts 26:23 / 1 Corinthians 15:16, 52 / Revelation 20:12-13 all convey the idea of a general resurrection of the dead. Of the faithful to life everlasting or of the unrighteous to either life everlasting or eternal destruction. (Acts 24:15)

    In your speaking about ( resurrection of the dead ) Who is the dead in reference to?
    Who are the dead ?

    Did you notice, in all of the books that you given, that you will find the resurrection of the dead.

    But no Resurrection of the Righteous,
    Those that are Faithful to God, There is no Resurrection.
    Why is that ?
     
    #37 Faithofchristian, Jun 16, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
  18. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Fawke no says Fawke the phoenix. Since we are about 14 billion years old I think fawkes is most correct in this.
    Phoenix-artwork-from-Harry-Potter-and-the-Chamber-of-Secrets-Jim-Kay.jpg
     
  19. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    What the Fawke are you talkin' about? o_O
     
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  20. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    I had a Co-worker who was was an extremely. Vocal atheist. As he was going one one day about Harry Potter I mentioned that in 80 AD pope clement 1 wrote a sermon and it starts "it has been said there lives a creature in Egypt who lives 700 th 1400 years, its and is reborn."

    I mentioned to the harsh atheist the earliest Christians equated their story to the phoenix! He got all blustery and Said they were totally different stories. I decided I didn't want to upset him anymore by mentioning his favourite author attended The church of Scotland as she wrote Harry Potter. He was struggling with the idea that fawkes was remotely associated to the evil empire (to him) , which today, is mostly composed of grandma's reading bronze age poetry story!!!! Those evil granny's...
     
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