• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is Darwinism still fact after Science 02 Jan 1998: Vol. 279, Issue 5347, pp. 28-29?

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
I don't believe you would have been out of a job for mentioning Larmarckism, if you did so on the basis of hard data and were appropriately tentative in your reference to it. What would probably - quite rightly - have put you out of a job would be repeated recitations of Lamarckism the way he originally characterised it, without data to justify your revisiting of it.

The idea that mentioning discredited theories gets people sacked is a myth, put about by cranks. What gets them sacked is bad science, or aggressive attacks on the consensus without sufficient foundation.

I meant getting put out of a job for promoting theories that don't fit the current understanding.
Shechtnam was dismissed for his belief in quasi-crystals - nay, he was dismissed for saying
he FOUND these crystals.
Early pioneers of epigenetics were treading dangerous waters too.
And many had their careers or tenure ruined for promoting Continental Drift.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I meant getting put out of a job for promoting theories that don't fit the current understanding.
Shechtnam was dismissed for his belief in quasi-crystals - nay, he was dismissed for saying
he FOUND these crystals.
Early pioneers of epigenetics were treading dangerous waters too.
And many had their careers or tenure ruined for promoting Continental Drift.

That was a lie the last time you posted it. Why dont you say it
again? In some cultures they think if you lie three times about
the same thing you lose your soul.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Lamarckism proves the existence of human races perfectly...
How climate and environment are the main thing influencing living beings' looks.
After all...the extreme beauty of tropical birds colors can only be explained by climate and sunlight.

Seriously? Are you into alchemy and phlogiston too?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is violation of Presumption of Innocence, and making the Presumption of Guilt.
One way you could look at scientific skepticism is that it uses the awareness of the possibility of error to avoid errors as far as possible, testing everything for error and then testing it again. That's not exactly a presumption of error / guilt, but it works well as a spur.

As I said, think how such an approach would benefit any theology!
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
You make it sound so dismissive.
It can range from speculation to the level of fact though.

Approximation can be factual, eg,
Pi approximately = 3.14159
That is a fact.

We're getting rather pedantic, eh.

One must be careful of such, though. Pi is irrational, yet 3.14159 is definitely rational.

Approximations should always come with a measure of accuracy, otherwise we can approximate anything with anything else.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
"Evolution" is basically considered an "axiom" in science since all material objects appear to change one way or another over time, and life forms are material objects. It's the details of which that can be conjectural at times.

That isn't 'evolution'. That is called 'dynamics'.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Look up articles in Wikipedia "Y-Chromosomal Adam", "Mitochondrial Eve".
:facepalm:

Y-Chromosome Adam was not the only one of his species at the time, nor was Mitochondrial Eve. And neither existed at the same time as the other.

So, no, those don't support the Biblical story.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
One must be careful of such, though. Pi is irrational, yet 3.14159 is definitely rational.

Approximations should always come with a measure of accuracy, otherwise we can approximate anything with anything else.
I agree.
What I'm arguing is analogous to Pluto being a planet or not. It all
hinges upon definitions one uses, so it can be viewed either way.
To me, the important thing isn't the picking of a side, but rather
understanding both. It's more interesting that way.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Look up articles in Wikipedia "Y-Chromosomal Adam", "Mitochondrial Eve".

Why? If you have an argument, make it and support it with links if you like. But orphan links - links with no argument substituting for an argument - are of no interest. Historically, the person leaving the link hasn't understood it, so what's the value in addressing its contents? Or, we'll get, "That's not the part of the article I was interested in."

It is violation of Presumption of Innocence, and making the Presumption of Guilt.

Nobody has to presume innocence except members of a jury, not even the attorneys.

"scientific scepticism'' is nothing more than a negative emotion

Skepticism is not an emotion. It's one of the most profound and successful ideas mankind has ever had. It converted alchemy to chemistry and astrology to astronomy:

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conductive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." - Buddha

How in the Darwin's Evolution to distinguish the very first person from a monkey

There is no very first person. The sorities paradox tells us that there is no first moment for a heap of sand piled up one grain at a time, no first moment when you have a beard rather than just stubble, no first moment when a collection of H2O molecules becomes wet, and no first instant of daylight in the morning. Here's a nice illustration:

xWpvw.jpg

Quote - "And proof is that which convinces" That's a seriously weird statement

I thought that it was self-evidently true. When somebody tells me that he can prove something to me, he is saying that he can convince me of that idea. If he succeeds, I'll say he proved it to me, meaning I'm convinced. If he fails, then he has not proven anything because he has not convinced.

When somebody tells me that he has proved something, if nobody's mind was changed, then I tell him he didn't prove anything. He tried, but failed.

Uncontested usefulness does not equal fact.

Uncontested usefulness is how we determine that an idea is a fact. Correct ideas work. That's what lets us know they're correct. If I tell you that I live five blocks north and three blocks east of the pier, the deciding factor of whether that is correct/truth/fact or not will be whether this idea can be used to get me to the pier from my front door. If walking 5 blocks south and three blocks west works as hoped to get me to the pier, then the idea is correct, can be called a fact, and has uncontested usefulness. If I end up anywhere else, it was wrong, not a fact, and not useful.

Btw, gravity can hardly claim to be a fact either. What with those you whippersnappers and their hot air balloons and hang-gliders and their parachutes and solar-powered planes it seems pretty easy to defy gravity, actually.

Gravity is a fact. The fact that stronger forces can overcome a gravitational force does not make the downward pull of gravity any less.

Darwinism has been put into use in society, with disastrous results. Think of Adolf Hitler

Hitler has nothing to do with the theory of evolution, which is not value-laden or purpose-driven, biology, and which is powered by natural selection. Hitler has more in common with biblical principles such as chosen people and genocides. Hitler was trying to do to his enemies what the god of the Hebrews did to his enemies such as the people living around Noah or the Egyptians' first born sons. That is value-laden, purpose-driven, artificial selection and not biology..

Sorry Darwin, nobody would agree that blind moles are the fittest creatures of their group.

They are fit to survive where they do or they wouldn't be there, and they are more fit for that environment than the other creatures that haven't replaced them.

Are you proposing that we throw out a scientific theory that has unified mountains of data from a multitude of sources, accurately made predictions about what can and cannot be found in nature, provides a rational mechanism for explaining the observable fact of evolution consistent with the known actions of nature, accounts for both the commonality of all life as well as biodiversity, and has had practical applications that have improved the human condition in areas like medicine and agriculture, and trade it in for a sterile idea like creationism that can do none of those things? Why would we? Why would you?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Uncontested usefulness does not equal fact.

Btw, gravity can hardly claim to be a fact either. What with those you whippersnappers and their hot air balloons and hang-gliders and their parachutes and solar-powered planes it seems pretty easy to defy gravity, actually. A fact, is something so pervasive that people can't simply shrug it off once new technology comes out. We call such things "guidelines."

All this does is show that you don't understand basic physics. That gravity is a force doesn't negate other forces (like buoyancy).

Seriously, learn some basic, high school physics.
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
One way you could look at scientific skepticism is that it uses the awareness of the possibility of error to avoid errors as far as possible, testing everything for error and then testing it again. That's not exactly a presumption of error / guilt, but it works well as a spur.

As I said, think how such an approach would benefit any theology!
The Einstein is synonym of the genius, but even Einstein has not got second Nobel Prize for E=mc^2. Because Albert has met the scientific scepticism.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
The Einstein is synonym of the genius, but even Einstein has not got second Nobel Prize for E=mc^2. Because Albert has met the scientific scepticism.


Inept grammar. spelling, and word usage is a sign of
poor education.
Making things up and stating them as fact is also a sign.
 
Last edited:

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Einstein is synonym of the genius, but even Einstein has not got second Nobel Prize for E=mc^2. Because Albert has met the scientific scepticism.
Are you saying that the theories of Einstein should be exempted from skepticism?

Why?
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Below references proved the Biblical Creationism (which tells, that Adam’s Family is just 7000 years old), but in order to be published in Darwinists’ journals the authors are saying, that they have not proved Creationism, but simply have questioned some aspects of the Darwinism:

Parsons, T., Muniec, D., Sullivan, K. et al. A high observed substitution rate in the human mitochondrial DNA control region. Nat Genet 15, 363–368 (1997); N. Howell, I. Kubacka, and D. A. Mackey, How rapidly does the human mitochondrial genome evolve? Am J Hum Genet. 1996 Sep; 59(3): 501–509; Ann Gibbons, Calibrating the Mitochondrial Clock, Science 02 Jan 1998: Vol. 279, Issue 5347, pp. 28-29; Jacob A. Tennessen, et al., Evolution and Functional Impact of Rare Coding Variation from Deep Sequencing of Human Exomes, Science 06 Jul 2012: Vol. 337, Issue 6090, pp. 64-69.

In the references above is put in doubt the 100 000 years old Adam. Thus, all ToE is put in doubt, if such major aspect is put in doubt.
But then Darwinian Evolution has lost its proud title „fact“. If one aspect of the fact is put in doubt, then it is not fact anymore. These references are in "Genetics Research Confirms Biblical Timeline" BY JEFFREY P. TOMKINS, PH.D. JANUARY 09, 2013 Genetics Research Confirms Biblical Timeline

Are these peer-reviewed papers, which proved Creationism, debunked already? Perhaps they are all debunked now, because of this verse: "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." Revelation 3:20, so the God does not break the "door". If a human wants to ignore the facts, the facts become debunked sooner or later. The great Richard Dawkins said: "God, why are you taking so many efforts to hide Yourself from us?" (in the end of the video "Expelled: no intelligence allowed" by Ben Stein).

However, if the papers, which prove Biblical Creationism get to be debunked, they nevertheless put in doubt the Darwinian Evolution. Thus, even if they do not disprove Darwinism, they have debunked it long ago.

Nevertheless, the true faith is not blind, one can know all and be believer in God: God is not atheist, cf.
1 Corinthians 13:2.

Wow... first off, I have no idea what you mean when you say Darwinism. Perhaps you mean the Theory of Evolution? Secondly, IF somehow someone was to present evidence that the theory of evolution is 100% wrong, that would not in any way shape or form provide evidence for creationism. You need to provide actual verifiable evidence for your creationist claims. Finally, evidence for the T of E is stronger today than ever before in history.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
You wish! How can there be the very first humans in history, if they came out monkeys? No way. Monkeys give birth to monkeys, not to the Y-Chromosomal Adam and Mitochondrial Eve.

Silly questfortruth... monkeys did not give birth to humans and the T of E doesn't suggest that they did. You do realize that all you accomplish with posts like this is to demonstrate for all to see just how phenomenally ignorant you are about the theory you're constantly attempting to disparage, don't you? But then folks have been trying unsuccessfully to educate you on the subject for quite some time, so perhaps you find some sort of bizarre comfort in remaining ignorant.
 
Top