Is "Cruelty" Ever Justified?

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm not sure how to answer as 'cruelty' has different meanings. Some consider intention and some don't. I think it's a good idea in general to strive not to cause suffering, even in killing. I do think innocence plays a big part here, as was mentioned before. Then you throw in things like sadomasochism and other examples of enjoying cruelty that are rather common, and it's complicated further.

And sure, an act against cruelty can be cruel itself, for example it could be the lesser cruelty - such as pricking somone with a syringe containing a vaccination against Covid

Yeah, no. I'd rather test positive for Covid than ever have that **** injected into me. So that would not be the "lesser cruelty" in my eyes. I think forced injections in general are unethical, outside of what's needed for emergency medical situations where the person is unconscious (for example).

 

[Apostle John]

It‘s good human cruelty will be accounted for the Christians.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Cruelty is never justified.

It may sometimes happen that one must take action to protect self or others -- and this may very well result in collateral harm (either to perpetrators or to innocent by-standers), but as such harm is unintended, that does not constitute cruelty.

Cruelty is deliberately causing suffering, and even if that is directed towards someone else who has caused you suffering, the fact that you are able to inflict it means that the positions have changed, and they can no longer harm you, and you can harm them. In such situations, your part is ended. You need do nothing more. To do more -- to be deliberately cruel -- now speaks only to you, and who you are.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

God has made heaven for Christians. Why would He let the evil wicked, depraved and perverse, who cause cruelty, enter this place called heaven.

Really? God made heaven (so I'm told) long, long before there was anything like a Christian -- because it was long before there was a Christ. (You may not see this as a problem -- lots of people worship beings that don't exist, but you might want to consider the implications.)

Out of curiosity, why would God let himself into "this place called heaven," when he himself killed millions of innocent children (all the babies during the flood, the first-born of Egypt who didn't do anything, the children of the Canaanites)? With a moral compass like that, I don't think he ought to have much to say about the matter.

 

[Apostle John]

Really? God made heaven (so I'm told) long, long before there was anything like a Christian -- because it was long before there was a Christ. (You may not see this as a problem -- lots of people worship beings that don't exist, but you might want to consider the implications.)

Out of curiosity, why would God let himself into "this place called heaven," when he himself killed millions of innocent children (all the babies during the flood, the first-born of Egypt who didn't do anything, the children of the Canaanites)? With a moral compass like that, I don't think he ought to have much to say about the matter.

This is the usual atheist rhetoric, only fit for atheists, moan moan moan, whine whine whine. Good luck for the future.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

This is the usual atheist rhetoric, only fit for atheists, moan moan moan, whine whine whine. Good luck for the future.

You might want to consider that you made a claim of "moan and whine," without ever having dealt with what the moans and whines were about. But of course, that's to be expected -- how could you?

Just for the record, this is very typical, chapter and verse, really, of those who make huge claims that they can't back up with anything at all.

 

[Apostle John]

Really? God made heaven (so I'm told) long, long before there was anything like a Christian -- because it was long before there was a Christ. (You may not see this as a problem -- lots of people worship beings that don't exist, but you might want to consider the implications.)

Out of curiosity, why would God let himself into "this place called heaven," when he himself killed millions of innocent children (all the babies during the flood, the first-born of Egypt who didn't do anything, the children of the Canaanites)? With a moral compass like that, I don't think he ought to have much to say about the matter.

People were always allowed to be with God from the beginning. You’re complaint is that we live in the valley of the shadow of death and that many people choose not walk with God.

 

[nPeace]

Yes, I agree that some responses are assuming that "cruelty" has the same meaning as "causing pain".

Cruelty, using this definition, is never justified. Sometimes causing pain is justified if it is the only option, for example in self defense or the defense of the innocent, or even beneficial, for example in surgery.

Made me think of when I was at school. Someone puts you in a choke hold, you had better cause them some pain... if you want to live.

 

[nPeace]

Yes. Cruelty revolves around intent and pleasure to willfully inflict pain and suffering.

A doctor performing surgery is not inflicting cruelty as the intent is to heal and repair rather than destroy.

I see it as a mental disposition as opposed to a physical act.

That's useful.

 

[nPeace]

No, I'm not saying God is not allowed to do it, I'm saying because of God's allegedly All-Merciful nature God would choose to make a better choice which God would have at God's disposal as All-Powerful.

A "better choice" might be viewed as a terrible choice, to some.
Who would get to decide what the better choice is?

If I as a human could deliver a vaccine to a baby's immune system without stabbing it in the arm with a syringe I wouldn't needlessly do it, but as a human who is not omnipotent I dont currently have that choice whereas an Omnipotent God does in my belief.

I remember taking a vaccine, when I was a child. It tasted sweet.
They put this sugary block in your mouth, and said. "Hey. You're good to go." ,,,and we were.
What changed? Why was that not the case with Covid?

If that God knows about the pain it causes and does it anyway when it has better choices then in my opinion it has demonstrated callous indifference to the creatures it causes pain and suffering to.

In my opinion.

Sounds reasonable.
God made the better choice.
If you disagree, maybe you can explain why, and share the better choice, and explain why it is.
I'd appreciate that. Thanks.

 

[nPeace]

Cruelty is causing pain, suffering, and damage to another human being for pleasure, and/or gain undeserved. This subject falls again under the natures of motivation. It's never just to be cruel.

Minus the pleasure, and undeserved gain, it may well be loving.

One has to establish that innocence, and guilt are real natural conditions of human individuals. To damage with harm an innocent person is cruel.

Can you elaborate on the part "One has to establish that innocence, and guilt are real natural conditions of human individuals". Thanks.

This is another argument that will get muddled, and confused by choice of definition. Cruelty is a specific nature of intention. It's not about temporary pain and suffering for the good of the one put through that.

Like... "Here, let me stick this needle in your eyeball. It will only be for a brief moment." Said the doctor, with a gleeful smile. "Hold still."
"Man I am never going back to that doctor. My eye was drained of the fluid, but that doctor is cruel."

 

[Eddi]

If it can be justified then it's not cruelty

Cruelty is by definition a thing that is done without any justification

 

[nPeace]

God has made heaven for Christians. Why would He let the evil wicked, depraved and perverse, who cause cruelty, enter this place called heaven.

Hey John.
I'm just curious about your statement.
Why do you believe that God made heaven for Christians?
Doesn't the Bible say God made earth for men? Psalms 115:16

 

[osgart]

Minus the pleasure, and undeserved gain, it may well be loving.


Can you elaborate on the part "One has to establish that innocence, and guilt are real natural conditions of human individuals". Thanks.


Like... "Here, let me stick this needle in your eyeball. It will only be for a brief moment." Said the doctor, with a gleeful smile. "Hold still."
"Man I am never going back to that doctor. My eye was drained of the fluid, but that doctor is cruel."

Since when is doing damage loving.

Blamelessness is innocence. Culpability in wrong doing is guilt.

Your example of the doctor sticking a needle in my eyeball to drain fluid is not cruelty.

 

[Apostle John]

Hey John.
I'm just curious about your statement.
Why do you believe that God made heaven for Christians?
Doesn't the Bible say God made earth for men? Psalms 115:16

The Psalms were obviously written before the first advent of Christ. Before Christ every soul went to Hades, based in Earth.

Heaven on the other hand is where God is. The Lord Jesus said He came to set the captives free thereby confirming the prophecy of Isaiah. He also said the following, confirming that Christians and saints will reside with God in heaven:

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it- Matthew 16:18.

In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?- John 14:2

 

[Alien826]

I remember taking a vaccine, when I was a child. It tasted sweet.
They put this sugary block in your mouth, and said. "Hey. You're good to go." ,,,and we were.
What changed? Why was that not the case with Covid?

Different vaccines are administered in different ways. Orally (PO), which is what you describe, means that the vaccine can be effective by being introduced into the mouth. Other methods are intramuscular (IM) where the vaccine is inserted into a muscle (COVID is done this way), subcutaneous (subcut) where it is inserted into the fatty tissue just under the skin, and even intranasal (NAS), into the nose. Each vaccine has a correct method.

 

[Alien826]

Your example of the doctor sticking a needle in my eyeball to drain fluid is not cruelty.

It can be if the doctor deliberately omits possible anesthetic measures. Whether that was true in this case I don't know.

 

[Alien826]

Made me think of when I was at school. Someone puts you in a choke hold, you had better cause them some pain... if you want to live.

Turn your head towards the attacker's elbow to relieve pressure on the windpipe. Bend the knees to drop your body and cause him to bend forward. Move your hips to one side and strike backwards with the elbow into the abdomen, then up over your shoulder with your fist into his face, then down again into the testicle area. Do all this as quickly as possible, preferably before he tightens his arm.

 

[nPeace]

Since when is doing damage loving.

I'll answer that below.

Blamelessness is innocence. Culpability in wrong doing is guilt.

Blameless to whom?
Some parents think their children innocent, after they get sentenced in court for rape, or murder, or...
Some of those guys even plead innocent.
I heard one man say, after shooting another to death. "I am sorry.... I am innocent."

Your example of the doctor sticking a needle in my eyeball to drain fluid is not cruelty.

He is doing damage. Does that answer your question?

 

[osgart]

It can be if the doctor deliberately omits possible anesthetic measures. Whether that was true in this case I don't know.

That's true. My only point is that cruelty is a specific motivation to harm resulting in certain actions.

The whole story is what's needed. I thought his example was his whole story.