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Featured Is Christmas Pagan?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Riders, Dec 11, 2020.

  1. Meandflower

    Meandflower Active Member

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    #181 Meandflower, Dec 16, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2020
  2. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Basically from Easter (which has nothing to do with "Eostre" unless we want to continue the Northern Eurocentrism and assume Early Christianity was an English religion. "Easter" is some variant of pascha in almost all languages which derives from pesach: passover.)

    Early Christians liked to compute dates for significant events long before The Roman Empire became Christian.

    These dates were due to a calculation from the crucifixion and an assumption that Jesus lived a 'perfect number of years in the flesh' (2nd or 3rd C at the latest).

    Thanks to the paschal table of Hippolytus, we can be sure that 25 March played an important role in Christian chronology as the date of the crucifixion since at least the early third century, thus laying the ground for an influential calendrical tradition in the Western church.

    Since it was established early on that Jesus died on 25 March, and since it was also assumed, based on Luke’s annunciation narrative, that he was born in winter, early Christians would have been tempted to re-interpret 25 March as the day of conception, whereby they could then arrive at 25 December as the date of the nativity. The attractiveness of 25 March and 25 December – the vernal equinox and the winter solstice – as cardinal points in the life of the Savior was naturally further underscored by a widespread solar symbolism, which viewed Christ as the “sun of righteousness” and is clearly present in chronological texts such as De pascha computus and the aforementioned On the solstices. CP Nothaft - Early Christian Chronology and the Origins of the Christmas
     
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  3. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Thank you so much, and may you & yours enjoy the holidays as well. Stay safe!
     
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  4. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Roughly the time of jesus conception, as mentioned by you.
     
  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, and the only way Jesus wanted to be remembered was by the remembrance of his day of death ( Month of Nisan 14th day on the Jewish calendar )
    Remember Jesus as mentioned at Luke 22:19-20; 1 Corinthians 11:24-26.
     
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  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Jesus died on the Spring calendar date of Nisan the 14th day at age 33 1/2.
    Thus, Jesus would have turned 34 in the Fall or Autumn of the year.(Daniel 9:24-27)
     
  7. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    I am talking what actually happens i.e Christmas being a continuation if pagan festivals.


    Also no dates ir ages mentioned in the link you provided, perhaps you use a different bible
     
    #187 ChristineM, Dec 16, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2020
  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    No different Bible, the date Daniel points to is the year Messiah would appear. ( Jesus baptised as Messiah ) - Daniel 9:25
    The arrival time was measured in ' weeks of years ' Meaning that 'each week' was -> 7 years long.
    So, we need to know a starting date. Each week being 7 years long and there would be 7 plus 62 of such weeks.
    Or, a total of 69 weeks of years. That equals 483 years.
    In Scripture, that span of years begins with Nehemiah (Nehemiah 2:1-5) Persian history establishes that date as 455 BC (BCE)
    Jesus then is right on time being baptised as Messiah in the year 29 CE/ AD.

    Jesus as Messiah would be cut off - Daniel 9:26 - cut off in death. ( half of the week would be three-and-a-half years when cut off in death)
    Daniel 9:27 says in the 'midst of the week' ( one week = 7 years) so from year 29 baptised to 1/2 of the 7 week year would be a 3 1/2 year ministry when Jesus is cut off in death.
    With the 70 weeks of years (483 years) coming to an end in the year 36 CE/AD. The end of that final one week of 7 years.
     
  9. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Weeks of years? Eh? Oh right speak for the numbers don't add up so fudge it.
     
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  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    There are three (3) noteworthy incidents to consider in connection to the 70 weeks of years:
    1st - 537 BCE when Cyrus issued the decree to restore the Jews to their homeland.
    2nd - In the reign of Artaxerxes Ezra carried a letter from the king - Ezra 7:6-27
    3rd - 13 years later in the 20th year of Artaxerxes Nehemiah learned Jerusalem's wall was broken down - Nehemiah 1:1-3; 2:1-3.
    Thus, Nehemiah's arrival in Jerusalem would be at the end of Artaxerxes 20th year or in the year 455 BCE
    It is then that the 490 years began ( or the 70 weeks ) ending in the year 36 CE/AD
    Year 455 to year 406 ( Jerusalem rebuilt ) would be 7 weeks. ( 49 years )
    From 406 BCE to 36 CE/AD would be 62 weeks or 434 years ( one week of 7 years from Jesus as Messiah to the end of the 70 weeks of years )
     
  11. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    A week is a week, it was then, it is now. No apologetics is going to change that.
     
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    We are dealing with: Bible speak.
    Kind of like the 6 creative days are Not literal 24-hour days.
    Or that all of the 6 creative days are just one day - Genesis 2:4
    Even in English we speak of grandfather's day and we know that is longer than a 24-hour day, and the same for Noah's day.
    God's 7th day was still on going in the first century - Hebrews 4:4-11
    God is still resting from further creative works at this time.
    Jesus' Millennium-Long Day is a coming thousand-year day.
    Getting back on track: during Jesus' millennial day there will be No pagan, No non-biblical celebrations, No mixing of biblical with non-biblical.
     
  13. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Good job i don't believe in god magic then otherwise i would have no need for clocks and calenders would i?

    Grandfather's day is October 3rd in france and that is still 23 hours 56 minutes just like every other day.

    And still much of Christmas is derived from pre christian mid winter celebrations
     
  14. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    It seems to me that the only question of worth is whether the relationship between Christmas and Western, pre-Christian winter solstice traditions was parasitic or symbiotic. If parasitic, the grievance should be addressed. If not, the protest is little more than posturing. In either event, "we liked trees before you liked trees" strikes me as an underwhelming argument.
     
  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    IMO, what to me is so pathetic about this conversation is that with the JW's, they simply ignore the fact that Jesus said there were only Two Commandments, and yet they insist that if one doesn't blindly swallow their political-correctness on numerous other items they are labeled "pagans", thus belonging to "Christendom". IOW, they virtually ignore what Jesus taught, and yet they are so willing to judge others.

    With the Two Commandments, there are many what are called "applications", and these have varied from group to group and time to time. It's only if they actually violate the Two Commandments is there a problem.
     
  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    But a different day, an entirely different holy day.
     
  17. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Ok,
    Except when they land on the same day (how does that work?)
    io Saturnalia
     
    #197 ChristineM, Dec 17, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2020
  18. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    1. Easter and the Feast of the Annunciation are not on the same day.
    2. Christmas and Saturnalia are not on the same day, nor does the timing of Christmas have one iota to do with Saturnalia.
     
  19. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Easter and the annunciation can occur on the same day but don't bother, i have found the answer myself.

    The difficulty of honoring both days simultaneously is so great that whenever March 25 falls during the week of Easter, the Catholic Church pushes its Annunciation celebration to later in the year. (This year, the church's feast of the Annunciation is April 4.)Mar 25, 2016​

    Today is the first of Saturnalia, i was greeting you with the traditional words. But i guess my magnanimous gesture fell on stony ground
     
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Oh my gosh. You just don't know when to stop pushing. They are not the same holy day, and we weren't discussing Easter. Enough.
     
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