• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

is Christmas Pagan?

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I think Christians have Passover, not Easter. And Passover is not pagan.

Christians do not celebrate Passover because it is for Jews only.
It commemorates the outcome of the tenth plague in Egypt when the angel of death 'passed over' the homes of the Israelites who obeyed God's directive to put the blood of the Passover Lamb on the door posts of their houses. It means nothing to Gentiles who make up the majority of Christians.

"Easter" is not a word you will find in the Bible because it is actually the name of the pagan goddess of fertility who was originally honored by this spring festival. Her symbols were rabbits and eggs.....fertility symbols that have not changed in all these centuries, except that there is now expensive chocolate to prop up a greedy commercial system. To graft that over Christ's death is nothing short of disgusting!

I think it depends on what you do and believe.

Exactly. We have no excuse to believe and practice what is clearly a fusion of paganism and apostate "Christianity". The apostle Paul's counsel could not be clearer. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

When people offer their excuses for not keeping their worship clean, I believe that they will soon find out how acceptable these 'celebrations' are to a God who tolerates NO false worship. (Exodus 20:3)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Do you have an example of an std that was started with illicit sex?

"Sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) are infections that are passed from one person to another through sexual contact. The causes of STDs are bacteria, parasites, and viruses. There are more than 20 types of STDs, including

Most STDs affect both men and women, but in many cases the health problems they cause can be more severe for women. If a pregnant woman has an STD, it can cause serious health problems for the baby."

Sexually Transmitted Diseases | STD | Venereal Disease | MedlinePlus

Which ever way you look at it, sex is involved in the transmission of any of these diseases.

Bacteria, viruses and parasites need a host and the correct conditions to spread and gain new hosts. None of these things will affect anyone who is not sexually active. STD's can't start or spread unless sex is involved. Staying within the confines of scriptural marriage is the best protection.

If God's law confines sexual relations with one partner, who is also a virgin, then the chances of contracting an STD are zero.

Admittedly, sex is a great way to spread disease, since it involves the swapping of bodily fluid. But given that many stds can be transmitted in other ways (do we know of any stds specifically designed for sexual transmission?) it suggests that they weren't originally divine retribution for sexual escapades.

Who is suggesting that STD' s are divine retribution? To me it is simply God stating that sexual acts belong in a God sanctioned marriage between two people whose sexual conduct is exclusive to each other. No STD will ever result in those circumstances. To go outside of those guidelines will mean that there are unwanted consequences....like pregnancy for some who engaged in sex purely for pleasure without regard for what sex is for....

Also, how do we know God's laws concerning sex?

He spells them out in the Bible. It's quite simple really. No sex without marriage. Enter into marriage as a virgin and enjoy sex with your mate, never having to worry about STD's.

And beyond that, isn't using disease as a fingerprint for divine ire problematic given the wide range of diseases that effect even the most pious of souls?

STD's are not divine retribution, but are simply the result of doing something for which the human body was not designed. Following manufacturers instructions means that the warranty is assured. Go outside of that and the warranty is voided. It's not rocket science surely...?

Aging, sickness and death are the result of human imperfection, which the Bible indicates are the result of human disobedience in the beginning.....we never learn apparently. If we just do as we are told, following our Maker's instructions, we will guarantee a much better outcome for ourselves than those who don't. That is my experience.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
How could it be pagan when we are celebrating the birth of the Christ child?

The celebration can easily be Pagan influenced, even heavily influenced, and still celebrate the Birth of th eChrist child. That is the nature of evolving culture.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
The Bible allows for commemorations. Purim being an example.

Is Christmas pagan? probably depends on how one goes about it. Is Jesus at the center or is Santa or something else at the center? Some Christmas celebrations are Christ centered, some are Christ absent.
I’m a loosely associated Christian at best. Christmas is a time for family, booze and good food. That Christ be included depends on what family members I visit during the holidays, in all honesty.
So it could be Atheist for all I care. Make your Christmas a good one and if one wants, by all means celebrate the Lord Jesus’ birth if that is what one wants to do.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
I’m a loosely associated Christian at best. Christmas is a time for family, booze and good food. That Christ be included depends on what family members I visit during the holidays, in all honesty.
So it could be Atheist for all I care. Make your Christmas a good one and if one wants, by all means celebrate the Lord Jesus’ birth if that is what one wants to do.

Not all Christians even celebrate Christmas although most do.... and so... I would respect conscience in this regard

But it's worth examining whether what your doing is Christ honoring whatever the case
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Not all Christians even celebrate Christmas although most do.... and so... I would respect conscience in this regard

But it's worth examining whether what your doing is Christ honoring whatever the case
If you like. I just use the day to annoy my family I don’t always get to see and get drunk
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Not beneath emotional blackmail huh? o_O Nice try. It doesn't work on me...sorry.
Now Deej, would I emotionally blackmail you? :innocent:

What I said was...."The only way to get STD's is through sex with multiple partners. You can have sex with a single partner a hundred times a day and as long as you are both virgins, they will not get an STD."

Having sex with multiple partners is how it starts...and then it is transmitted by a number of ways, most of which involve breaking God's laws... Where was the false witness?
Again not necessarily.
You can’t magically create syphilis by sleeping with a bunch of people. If you are HIV negative, you can sleep with 1000 HIV negative people and not contract HIV at all. Granted I don’t really recommend doing that, but that’s how biology works.
Now Syphilis and Gonorrhoea have been around since humans were a thing. It was thought to have spread by medieval sailors who picked up the disease on a Christopher Columbus voyage. Now remember, there are STDs that have crossed from cattle and even sheep to humans. Including Chlamydia, fun fact.



One explanation I heard was that it was let loose in the homosexual community to stifle the numbers somewhat. Something about an experiment with rhesus monkeys and the virus escaping.....dunno if its true, perhaps we will never know.....its was one of the most devastating viruses to afflict human beings. Took out some very famous people....:oops:
A bit too conspiratorial. It probably just jumped from primate to hominoid through bad bush meat. Though the Government (US) did allegedly drag its heels against expert advice from medical professionals, whilst millions suffered.
And remember, if people didn’t realise they were HIV positive, they could have unknowingly spread it by accidentally coughing on another person. We didn’t know what it was or how contagious it was when it first came up. There were certainly malicious Rumours and slanderous lies spread during the epidemic. So I would prefer to listen to the actual science on the matter.
And yes, such a tragedy indeed. Our generations version of the bubonic plague, you could say.

Yes they do. Ask a Scott about black pudding.

Blood as food - Wikipedia
So you’re saying...,Scottish people are vampires!? Of course! It all makes sense now. Fancy castles, self loathing, constant infighting! It all fits!

(only kidding. Please don’t drain my blood, @Revoltingest ;))



Yes, there are creatures who borrow blood from others in order to incubate their offspring. Unfortunately blood borne diseases are also passed on to humans that way. Bit like a shared needle....
To be fair, there are also instances where blood letting and leeches can be affective medical treatments. I mean its rare today, but it can happen.

Actually, one of the values they held in common with Christians was the "Familia".

"The "familia" in Rome included more than just the basic family of father, mother, and children. It also included all the people who were part of the household such as the slaves, servants, clients, and freedmen. As a result, some families in Rome grew quite large." (Google search)

"The central values that Romans believed their ancestors had established covered what we might call uprightness, faithfulness, respect, and status. These values had many different effects on Romans' attitudes and behaviors, depending on the social context, and Roman values often interrelated and overlapped." (Google search)

Sounds like some shared values to me.
So, destruction of the family was in large part the disintegration of society.
I think you’re overestimating the significance a bit. I mean this disintegration was apparently a directly result of Christianity.
And as has been pointed out, they were still decadent and it still took a few generations for it to truly “fall.”
I’ll defer to @Augustus, since they seem more knowledgeable on the subject than I.



No, sorry...not even close. :p Some of the values were shared....go figure.
Aww Deej, you disappoint me. But there’s still time and you seem intent on hanging out with us degenerates. I still hold out some hope ;)

Be careful what you wish for :rolleyes:.....sometimes boring is better than overexcitement...or dread.
I’m not experiencing any of those things. Are you???
But come on, the apocalypse predictions are starting to get a bit stale. You guys need to punch it up a bit more. Add some flair and style. Everyone and their grandmother has predicted the end times. Rise to the challenge and bring something new.


Everything comes to those who wait......God is not confined to Earth time ya know.
I am very patient. :D
Well I guess patience is a virtue.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Now Deej, would I emotionally blackmail you? :innocent:

You tried.....:rolleyes: I laughed.

You can’t magically create syphilis by sleeping with a bunch of people.

It has to come from somewhere.....sleeping with a bunch of people certainly increases your risk, especially if you don't know who (or how many) your partner has slept with....biologically, you have slept with all of them.....:eek:

Abiding by God's laws means you never have to worry...so it has its advantages.

If you are HIV negative, you can sleep with 1000 HIV negative people and not contract HIV at all. Granted I don’t really recommend doing that, but that’s how biology works.

There are so many other STD's to choose from....heck, its like a smorgasbord! :confused:

Now Syphilis and Gonorrhoea have been around since humans were a thing. It was thought to have spread by medieval sailors who picked up the disease on a Christopher Columbus voyage. Now remember, there are STDs that have crossed from cattle and even sheep to humans. Including Chlamydia, fun fact.

You know that even Koalas get chlamydia, don't you? And since its not unheard of to practice bestiality, (something that the Bible forbids) its little wonder that there can be cross-infection. o_O

And remember, if people didn’t realise they were HIV positive, they could have unknowingly spread it by accidentally coughing on another person. We didn’t know what it was or how contagious it was when it first came up. There were certainly malicious Rumours and slanderous lies spread during the epidemic. So I would prefer to listen to the actual science on the matter.

Here's how its spread...
How Is HIV Transmitted?

And yes, such a tragedy indeed. Our generations version of the bubonic plague, you could say.

Yes, a horrible death.

So you’re saying...,Scottish people are vampires!? Of course! It all makes sense now. Fancy castles, self loathing, constant infighting! It all fits!

(only kidding. Please don’t drain my blood, @Revoltingest ;))

:eek:

To be fair, there are also instances where blood letting and leeches can be affective medical treatments. I mean its rare today, but it can happen.

A lot of old medicinal methods are making a comeback....maggots for cleaning badly infected wounds....blood letting....leeches.....cannabis....actual real food picked fresh from a garden.....water that is uncontaminated by pesticides and other chemicals.....no plastic....and not to be left out....fresh air to breathe.

Fires are burning all around me at the moment so the air is a bit thick with smoke right now.....you got fires where you are?

I think you’re overestimating the significance a bit. I mean this disintegration was apparently a directly result of Christianity.

What did Christianity do that would make a powerful Empire crumble...apart from dismembering their false gods that is....

And as has been pointed out, they were still decadent and it still took a few generations for it to truly “fall.”
I’ll defer to @Augustus, since they seem more knowledgeable on the subject than I.

It didn't happen overnight.....but interestingly, from the Bible's perspective, Britannia appears to have arisen out of the ashes of Rome.

Aww Deej, you disappoint me. But there’s still time and you seem intent on hanging out with us degenerates. I still hold out some hope ;)

Don't hold your breath sweet-pea...:D

I’m not experiencing any of those things. Are you???

Nope, but I am soooo looking forward to seeing the end of this rotten world though....I'm hanging out for the new one.....nothing to fear for those who are on the right side. :p

But come on, the apocalypse predictions are starting to get a bit stale. You guys need to punch it up a bit more. Add some flair and style. Everyone and their grandmother has predicted the end times. Rise to the challenge and bring something new.

I thought we did :oops:.....we actually brought it into the 21st century and demonstrated how the First World War was the beginning of the "time of the end" and that when the world became "just like the days of Noah", then Jesus was not too far away......(Matthew 24:37-39) We're nearly there....

Well I guess patience is a virtue.

Always....;)
 
It didn't happen overnight...

One more time... It didn't happen for the best part of 1000 years :D

After the 'fall' it regained most of its territory, then lost a fair deal during the Arab conquests, but this was the consequence of plague and costly wars with Persia seriously weakening the military and destroying the tax base. This is almost the opposite of 'decadence'.

Also Roman use of mercenaries, foederati, led to the 'Romanification' of tribes and a trend towards consolidation of smaller tribes into larger tribal confederations. Learning discipline and tactics from serving in the Roman Army also made them more formidable fighters. This happened in the West, and most probably with the Arabs too prior to the Arab conquests

Even then the Roman Empire lasted for another 700 years.

What did Christianity do that would make a powerful Empire crumble...

The 'crusaders' sacked Constantinople in 1203 and took much of its territory :D

(Although it is very oversimplistic to put this on 'Christianity' as it was significantly driven by Venetian power and a land grab)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
One more time... It didn't happen for the best part of 1000 years
When did I say it happened overnight?

The 'crusaders' sacked Constantinople in 1203 and took much of its territory

No Christian can be a crusader.....because Christ taught us to love our enemies...not kill them. (Matthew 5:43-48)

It wasn't "Christians" therefore who participated in the Crusades....it was pretenders...apostate defectors. Christ was never among them. (Luke 6:46)
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
"Sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) are infections that are passed from one person to another through sexual contact. The causes of STDs are bacteria, parasites, and viruses. There are more than 20 types of STDs, including

Most STDs affect both men and women, but in many cases the health problems they cause can be more severe for women. If a pregnant woman has an STD, it can cause serious health problems for the baby."

Sexually Transmitted Diseases | STD | Venereal Disease | MedlinePlus

Which ever way you look at it, sex is involved in the transmission of any of these diseases.

Bacteria, viruses and parasites need a host and the correct conditions to spread and gain new hosts. None of these things will affect anyone who is not sexually active. STD's can't start or spread unless sex is involved. Staying within the confines of scriptural marriage is the best protection.

Many of them can effect those who aren't sexually active. AIDs and Syphilis simply need contact with blood. AIDs and Trich can be passed from mother to baby. Herpes is often spread by kissing. HPV can be contracted through drinking contaminated water.

While yes, sex is a risk factor, it is possible to contract many of these with even biblical, God-inspired sex.

If God's law confines sexual relations with one partner, who is also a virgin, then the chances of contracting an STD are zero..

Nope. No way is it zero. How to Get a Sexually Transmitted Disease Without Having Sex

Who is suggesting that STD' s are divine retribution? To me it is simply God stating that sexual acts belong in a God sanctioned marriage between two people whose sexual conduct is exclusive to each other. No STD will ever result in those circumstances. To go outside of those guidelines will mean that there are unwanted consequences....like pregnancy for some who engaged in sex purely for pleasure without regard for what sex is for....

He spells them out in the Bible. It's quite simple really. No sex without marriage. Enter into marriage as a virgin and enjoy sex with your mate, never having to worry about STD's.

STD's are not divine retribution, but are simply the result of doing something for which the human body was not designed. Following manufacturers instructions means that the warranty is assured. Go outside of that and the warranty is voided. It's not rocket science surely...?

Aging, sickness and death are the result of human imperfection, which the Bible indicates are the result of human disobedience in the beginning.....we never learn apparently. If we just do as we are told, following our Maker's instructions, we will guarantee a much better outcome for ourselves than those who don't. That is my experience.

It is more likely these diseases have evolved and are continuingly evolving alongside humans. And because of that, we are capable of handling them through science. Chlamydia for example, is very easy to cure. Even HIV is no longer the death sentence it was.

I will concede that you lessen your chances of contracting stds by practicing safe sex, but it doesn't have to be Biblical marriage.
 
When did I say it happened overnight?

Your argument is like saying Germany lost WW2 because of the decadence in Charlemagne's court.

The collapse of the Roman Empire the best part of a millennium later has nothing to do with 4th C Roman 'decadence'.

It has about as much truth in it as Gibbon's claim that Christianity made the Romans soft.

No Christian can be a crusader.....because Christ taught us to love our enemies...not kill them. (Matthew 5:43-48)

It wasn't "Christians" therefore who participated in the Crusades....it was pretenders...apostate defectors. Christ was never among them. (Luke 6:46)

No True Scotsman...
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Christians do not celebrate Passover because it is for Jews only.
...

By what the Bible tells, Christians (=disciples of Jesus) are Jews.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree; don't boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you.
Romans 11:17-18

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
By what the Bible tells, Christians (=disciples of Jesus) are Jews.

Remember that Jesus instituted a “new covenant” with his apostles, who were said to be the foundation “stones” of God’s Kingdom.(Revelation 21:14) All of the first Christians were Jewish because of God's covenant with Abraham to produce the promised seed through his lineage. (Genesis 22:17-18)

By giving them first option to accept their Messiah before offering salvation to "all the nations", (as he said) he kept his promise to make Israel "a priesthood and a holy nation".....except that his reference was not to literal Israel, who failed to keep their end of the bargain. Even John the Baptist told them that their nationality was not going to save them. (Matthew 3:7-12) That God could produce 'children for Abraham from the stones'.

Your reference to Romans 2:28-29 is exactly what that means. When Paul mentions "a people for his [God's] name" (Acts 15:14) he is speaking about "spiritual" Jews not fleshly ones....these are "people of the nations" who were always going to be included in God's purpose for his Kingdom....all would be faithful disciples of Jesus.

Jesus did not come to start a new religion...he came to re-establish true worship among his own people....but they wanted to stay where they had always been.....always on the fringes of disobedience, waiting for a weak ruler to lead them astray.

Jesus judged them already....
Matthew 23:37-39...
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

For almost 2,000 years, the natural Jews have failed to acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah. They will not collectively ever say "blessed is he who comes in the name of Jehovah" because they are convinced that he never was. Who said? The Pharisees whom Jesus castigated at every opportunity.....he consigned to "gehenna". (eternal death)

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree; don't boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you.
Romans 11:17-18

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29

You can see clearly how the Gentiles who accepted Jesus were grafted into 'the root system', whilst many of the natural branches were cut off.

Judaism was let go as incorrigible once God's obligation was fulfilled. He had no need to keep serial covenant breakers as his own. He changed the definition of what it meant to him to be "Jewish". "The Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) now included people of the nations who were in line for a heavenly inheritance.

Jesus, in the role of the "Fine Shepherd", led the "lost sheep" out of that corrupted pen, and on into fresh pasture. But his warning was, that even that sheepfold would be led astray. Human nature being what it is, it is easy for God's enemy to keep using the same tactics...why? Because they work!

That us how I see things from my study of the Bible.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Being a "Jew", is a nationality, not a religion. "Judaism" is a religion, not a nationality. However, the view within Judaism is that if one converts to Judaism, one also becomes Jewish as part of the "family".

That same rule never was applied to joining any other religion other than Judaism, thus the idea that if one converts to Christianity that this somehow makes them "Jewish" simply has no Biblical nor any historical support. Plus, if it were to be true, then every Christian would have to observe all of the 613 Mosaic Commandments as cited in Torah.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...He changed the definition of what it meant to him to be "Jewish". ...

I disagree with that.

Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. Yahweh your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. You shall return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command you this day. Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fathers;
Deuteronomy 30:6-9

For finding fault with them, he said, "Behold, the days come," says the Lord, "That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they didn't continue in my covenant, And I disregarded them," says the Lord. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
Hebrews 8:8-12 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

I think that is the covenant God made through Jesus. He confirmed and clarified the old.
 
Top