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Featured Is Christmas Pagan?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Riders, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    Jealous? :D
     
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  2. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    No, I believe in pure monotheism without human sacrifice.
     
  3. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    Baha'is don't celebrate holidays? (I would also disagree with Baha'i being "pure monotheism" since what I see posted by your co-religionists on here indicates to me that the "Messangers of God" in your religion are viewed as semi-divine, at least. But I would say that none of the Abrahamic religions are "pure monotheism" since all of them have ended up worshipping humans, idolizing books, a piece of land, your tribe, etc. But that's another topic.)
     
    #23 Saint Frankenstein, Dec 2, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
  4. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Actually and absolutely no, the manifestations of God as bearers of the Revelation are not remotely considered demi-gods. You would have to provide a reference from the Baha'i writings to justify your assertions,

    The message is Divine, but the messenger is human.

    From: Station of Baha'u'llah

    "That Bahá'u'lláh should, notwithstanding the overwhelming intensity of His Revelation, be regarded as essentially one of these Manifestations of God, never to be identified with that invisible Reality, the Essence of Divinity itself, is one of the major beliefs of our Faith — a belief which should never be obscured and the integrity of which no one of its followers should allow to be compromised." - Shoghi Effendi

    From: The Great Educators: Manifestations of God

    Know that the Holy Manifestations, though They have the degrees of endless perfections, yet, speaking generally, have only three stations. The first station is the physical; the second station is the human, which is that of the rational soul; the third is that of the divine appearance and the heavenly splendor. – Some Answered Questions, p. 151

    The first station is the physical. Abdu’l-Baha explains:

    The physical station is phenomenal; it is composed of elements, and necessarily everything that is composed is subject to decomposition. It is not possible that a composition should not be disintegrated. – ibid, p. 151.

    This is the material nature Baha’u’llah spoke about, which refers to the physical body of the Prophets of God. Through this physical reality, the Manifestations may experience all the limitations of the human body – its pain and suffering and its mortality.

    However, these experiences do not change the rational soul. Abdu’l-Baha writes:

    Thus consider what thousands of vicissitudes can happen to the body of man, but the spirit is not affected by them; it may even be that some members of the body are entirely crippled, but the essence of the mind remains and is everlasting. A thousand accidents may happen to a garment, but for the wearer of it there is no danger. – ibid, pp. 155-156.

    Abdu’l-Baha then elucidates the second station of the Chosen Ones of God — the rational soul:

    The second is the station of the rational soul, which is the human reality. This is also phenomenal, and the Holy Manifestations share it with all mankind. – ibid, p. 156.

    This definitive statement, that the Manifestations have a human soul, clearly means they are not Logos incarnate. Baha’is understand their human soul, however, as special. It is, as Baha’u’llah made plain, a “pure and stainless Soul,” an undefiled perfect mirror of God’s light. Baha’u’llah explains of the Chosen Ones of God:
     
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  5. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Technically Christianity implies that the pagan world is now holy except for the evil parts. That's why it adopts anything good it finds in pagan life while avoiding the darker practices such as human sacrifice. There are reasons why the pagans love and adopt Christianity, and that is probably one of them. These days there are many groups that don't seem to remember that, and its kind of strange. Many protestant churches went through a phase of rejecting Halloween only to now embrace it under new names such as 'Light Night' and 'Trunk or Treat'. So...messianics? I predict they'll celebrate Christmas sooner or later probably. They might call it something else like 'Family Jesus Alternative Non Birth Day' or something like that. Its no different from when some people prefer to say 'Turkey Day' instead of 'Thanksgiving'. Its still the same day, and they still enjoy and appreciate food.

    Jesus true birthday is either a secret or unimportant, similar to Chinese birthdays. We don't know when Moses is born or Abraham or any of the famous Bible characters. Therefore it is understood that Jesus birthday cannot be on a particular day, but there is no reason we can't celebrate it on the 25th.
     
  6. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    I'm not reading your copy and paste job and mumbo jumbo to obfuscate things, and why did you ignore my original question? I asked if Baha'i celebrate holidays. The stuff in the parentheses was only added a few minutes ago.
     
  7. Gerry

    Gerry Well-Known Member

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    My opinion.
    Christmas is for kids, presents and Santa Claus.
     
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  8. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    It is only pagan if one views it so. An object or a date are just an object or a date. If you ascribe Christian values to them, then they are Christian in nature.

    There was in fact a Christian model for Santa Claus, a bishop in a poor town in Russia who became a huge supporter of the poor and gave gifts secretly to poor kids on Christmas. The Santa suit resembles the garb of a bishop
     
  9. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Sorry, I considered the original question rather trivial. Yes, we celebrate holy days:

    Holy days...
    • The Birth of the Báb. Annually in October or November. ...
    • Declaration of the Báb. Annually on 'Aẓamat 8. ...
    • Martyrdom of the Báb. Annually on Raḥmat 17. ...
    • The Birth of Baha'u'llah. Annually in October or November. ...
    • Festival of Ridván. ...
    • Ascension of Bahá'u'lláh. ...
    • Day of the Covenant.


    The calendar New Year is Spring or Vernal Equinox. It is simply the first day of the solar calendar. called Naw-Rúz.
     
  10. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    Trivial? Well, this is a thread about a holiday so I thought it was appropriate to ask.

    So how do Baha'is celebrate those holidays? Do you have any traditions? Like a ritual, a meal, decorations, etc.?
     
  11. Firemorphic

    Firemorphic Activist Membrane

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  12. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Every year its the same ridiculous stuff. Look, Christians set aside this day to remember the birth of Jesus. There is nothing pagan about that (unless you consider worshiping a man to be pagan). I think you are right. I don't do Christmas because I'm a Jew. But I think for Gentiles it's a perfectly lovely holiday.
     
  13. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    No specific rituals nor specific decorations. Prayer, reciting scripture, and music are part of the observances, but not specific.

    Actually the question is Christmas. I will include Easter as well, itself is a pagan holiday, and yes with specific pagan rituals and yes they are.

    Having specific rituals and decorations is not relevant regardless concerning the topic of the thread.

    I answered your specific question concerning the manifestations being called demi-gods, and you fail to respond except with insults.
     
  14. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Worshiping a man as God is pagan.

    Yes it is a very very lovely holiday celebration.
     
  15. Gerry

    Gerry Well-Known Member

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    Did the early pagans worship the sun or did they see the sun as a representation of God?

    Is the sun not a representation of God? The sun’s warmth represents God’s love and it’s light represents His wisdom.

    His wisdom is the faith He gives those who follow Him.

    A person who claims to have faith may only actually have faith in a religion. Religion is a human invention. Faith from the Lord is a gift from Him, not something acquired by saying it is so. Having faith without love of others is like the winter sun. Life is dormant during this time, not growing.

    It might be beneficial for many modern day Christians to first get to know the God they claim to follow, then determine the Wisdom of their beliefs.
     
  16. david-david

    david-david Member

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    And what is wrong with that? Coming together and celebrating love on any day? Weekday or Weekend?

    It could the 'false/true' teachings being taught about Christmas being the birthdate of Christ (J)esus that can be questionable.


    The only person that might know the 'day' He was born on might be Mary, (J)oseph and maybe a few inn keepers, right?

    So why and how is that day being taught that it was 'The' Day of Christ's birth?



    Why do persons lurk around the outside of my door saying that it has nothing to do with Christ's Birthday?


    But love and goodness shared with family? What is wrong with that? Teaching the young ones while they are still willing to 'learn' are precious years.

    Do you think it's adorable that the young ones learn how to sing new songs and run around in their footed pajamas while the Christmas Tree is lit during the evening hours? Nice, I think.

    Sometimes, adults need time away from things such as:

    [​IMG]



    and it might be better if the young ones do too.


    And herein is the 'eek'.


    When things that matter are asked, 'Why must it matter'?

    [​IMG]
    --------------------------------^----------------------and old goatee?



    [​IMG]







    Why should it matter if (J)esus Christ had long hair or not?



    Because of this 1 thing, there could be discrimination law suits regarding 'personal' values left and right.

    One might say, 'Well, (J)esus Christ had 'long' hair.



    Not to get too off track but:




    One other thing: Born this way by Lady Gaga.. Lyrics.

    It doesn't matter if you love him, or capital H-I-M
    Just put your paws up 'cause you were born this way, baby


    I mean, of course we all know that Lady Gaga was referring to 'hands' when she said 'paws', but paws are actually the 'feet' of animals, not hands.


    Heard any complaints about this, yet?
     
    #36 david-david, Dec 2, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
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  17. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    My remark about you Baha'is idolizing Bahawhatever as semi-divine wasn't a question. I was stating my view of it after months seeing you and your co-religionists go on about him (oh, sorry, I guess I should capitalize His pronouns like we do for deities, like you Baha'is do). Your obsfucations aren't going to convince me otherwise from what I see with my own two eyes. My mind is made up there based on observation. I really don't think "pure monotheism" exists, at least not in organized religions. If you want that, then cut out the angels, messangers, prophets, books, cultural and ethnocentric attitudes, etc. and just have God alone. What use is all that other stuff when you have an omni-max Supreme Being? Just approach this Being directly without any intermediary. So it tickles me how you Abrahamics all bash each other and accuse one another of "idolatry" when you're all in the same exact leaky boat. Of course, I don't expect you to see my point because you all have huge egos blinding you.

    Also, you're not exactly respectful of other religions, as you insult Christianity by saying it's "corrupted with Roman paganism" (which implies that pre-Christian Roman religion is a negative influence). So don't play with the victim with me.
     
  18. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Your mind made up pretty much ends any possible dialogue. Nonetheless you have to take responsibility for your own negative view and not blame the Baha'is nor I for your view.

    The Baha'i scripture describes specifically the manifestations of God as human and not demi-gods.

    your hostility toward Baha'i and the Baha'i Faith is up front, and does not deserve a constructive response. Actually, it is apparent you are hostile to the Abrahamic religions without exception.
     
  19. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    No, I am not a fan of the Baha'i Faith and I don't need to be. To be honest, I don't really like new religious movements (younger than 200 years or so) in general. However, you're being hypocritical because your religion does not respect other religions. You spit on polytheist religions and don't even recognize those as actual religions (probably because they're much harder to warp to fit your usurping narrative) and for the ones you try to warp and usurp - Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Vaishnavism, Christianity and Islam - you expect to supersede and their followers to convert to your religion. You expect the whole world to become Baha'i and to be a world power. Your religion is also as homophonic and sexist as the other Abrahamic religions are.

    As for my feelings about the Abrahamic religions as a whole, I do think the premises they're founded upon are incorrect. There is beauty in them and I admire those aspects. However, I think they are dangerous and have done great damage to the world, not least as tools of colonialism and genocide. They are arrogant, even hubristic religions. They're the only group of religions I'm aware of that make bigotry a spiritual virtue (as opposed to the pluralistic outlook of almost every other). I would be happy for them to become a minority where they are currently the majority and for peoples currently under their yoke to revive their indigenous ways. I want to see more diversity in the world, more worldviews. The Abrahamic worldview has been choking almost half the world for centuries. It's had its time and now we should move on. I won't hold my breath, however.

    Regardless of how I feel, you are in no position to attempt to shame me for not liking your religion.
     
  20. david-david

    david-david Member

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    The Bahá'í Faith is a religion teaching the essential worth of all religions, and the unity and equality of all people.[1] Established by Bahá'u'lláh in 1863, it initially grew in Iran and parts of the Middle East, where it has faced ongoing persecution since its inception.[2] Currently it has between 5 and 7 million adherents, known as Bahá'ís, spread out into most of the world's countries and territories


    Amazing again.. From 1863 to having arguments over it in the U.S, 155 years after. So let's look at 'Iran'..


    Christianity has a long history in Iran, dating back to the early years of the faith, and pre-dating Islam.

    According to the Acts of the Apostles there were Persians, Parthians and Medes among the very first new Christian converts at Pentecost.[8] Since then there has been a continuous presence of Christians in Iran.

    Many old churches remain in Iran from the early days of Christianity. Some historians[which?] regard the Assyrian Church of Mart Maryam (St. Mary) in northwestern Iran, for example, as the second-oldest church in Christendom after the Church of Bethlehem in the West Bank.


    Esther 1:19 "If it please the king, let there go a royal commandment from him, and let it be written among the laws of the Persians and the Medes, that it be not altered, That Vashti come no more before king Ahasuerus; and let the king give her royal estate unto another that is better than she."


    Acts 2:5-13 "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.'


    4005. pentékosté
    Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
    Pentecost.
    Feminine of the ordinal of pentekonta; fiftieth (hemera being implied) from Passover, i.e. The festival of "Pentecost" -- Pentecost.


    How long after the ascension of Christ was this Pentecost held?



    Why travel land and sea to spread discord? Why not travel land and sea to spread Truth and The Gospel? What 'good news' is false knowledges?


    American Is Killed with Bow and Arrow on This Remote Island
    John Allen Chau died after Sentinelese tribesmen brutally shot him — here's what happened in a tragic case

    American Is Killed with Bow and Arrows on This Remote Island


    Sentinelese ?? What did John Allen Chau know of the Sentinelese lanuages that the rest of the world did not?

    Sentinelese is a name provisionally given to the undescribed languageof the Sentinelese of North Sentinel Island in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, India. Due to the lack of contact between theSentinelese people and the rest of the world, nothing is known of their language.


    This is my opinion. Not everything is in The Light, open, for persons to feel and rest 'Safely' within in this World.


    I mean, I know of persons that have been in Prison for 'bad' things... *shhhh


    Could 'false' practices ever be acceptable?
    Now and in the Hereafter?

    What 'things' could you come up with to use as 'accusations' against any God belief?
     
    #40 david-david, Dec 2, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
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