Is Christmas Christian or "Satanic"?

[Jumi]

Sorry, meant Easter and the dating of Jesus' crucifixion to 25 March predates this which was the start point for the additional traditions but, looking back, I expressed it very unclearly.

The 25 Dec dating of the Sol Invictus festival to the 3rd C is also quite tentative, it could have been as late as mid 4th C

Seems like you have a preference here. The text speculating on 8 days before April(25th of March) being crucifixion day doesn't even begin to support any celebration traditions. Passover which is fairly established and Christmas are different traditions. There are other texts speculating on Jesus birthday by early Christian writers and they weren't very fond of birthday celebrations in general, them being pagan tradition.

 

[Jumi]

Of course I find Christmas carries the same name Yule because the label or name Christmas replaced Yule, Saturnalia, etc. So-called Christmas is the same old non-biblical festival it always was just re-named Christmas.

And the Christmas goat giving gifts in northern Europe seems like it's a mix from the pagan tradition of giving charity during the coldest and darkest time of year. Practical for having them survive the winter, but nothing to do with Jesus.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

If Christmas was poking yourself up and down with needles who would celebrate it. Of course it's fun.
What I find is wrong is that 'so-called Christians' added Christian names or labels to that existing non-biblical festival.
Jesus, nor his apostles, never authorized such a thing. That happened long after the Bible was completed.

Huh? What Christian names were "added" to anything?

 

[Augustus]

Seems like you have a preference here. The text speculating on 8 days before April(25th of March) being crucifixion day doesn't even begin to support any celebration traditions. Passover which is fairly established and Christmas are different traditions. There are other texts speculating on Jesus birthday by early Christian writers and they weren't very fond of birthday celebrations in general, them being pagan tradition.

What it supports is that there are 2 different tradition that both use the same method for dating Christmas, which are unrelated to contemporary pagan festivals and that this probably started some time in the 3rd C.

 

[ChristineM]

I am wondering how you decided that 'all' branches....... do stuff not in the Bible.
I believe what I do is based on the Bible and Not on church traditions.
Scripture says there is One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism at Ephesians 4:5
So, why else should a person belong to a faith unless they thought it was the right one.

Each cult of Christianity interprets the bible on their own way, on top of that there are over 200 english language versions of the bible, all different, not to mention how many on pther languages.


The original was 85% selectively copied from the ot and 15% compiled by committee some 350 years after events

Since then the various versions have been mistranslated, miscopied and deliberately altered

There are no original versions of the bible left to chech, the closest written some 80 years after the original, even that too has changed over the the millennia.

So which bible do you follow?

 

[ChristineM]

Not to sound nit picky, but it was the later 'so-called Christians' who brought trees into their homes.
Christians in Scripture never celebrated the solstice, etc. but only Luke 22:19 the day of Jesus' death.

Surely it is not your perogative to take god place and judge?

 

[Jumi]

What it supports is that there are 2 different tradition that both use the same method for dating Christmas, which are unrelated to contemporary pagan festivals and that this probably started some time in the 3rd C.

But the source text says nothing about the birth of Jesus or conceiving him on that day:

And the suffering of this "extermination" was perfected within the times of the lxx hebdomads, under Tiberius Caesar, in the consulate of Rubellius Geminus and Fufius Geminus, in the month of March, at the times of the passover, on the eighth day before the calends of April,120 on the first day of unleavened bread, on which they slew the lamb at even, just as had been enjoined by Moses.121 Accordingly, all the synagogue of Israel did slay Him, saying to Pilate, when he was desirous to dismiss Him, "His blood be upon us, and upon our children; "122 and, "If thou dismiss him, thou art not a friend of Caesar; "123 in order that all things might be fulfilled which had been written of Him.124

Unless there is some other text not translated.

 

[Augustus]

But the source text says nothing about the birth of Jesus or conceiving him on that day:

It's not supposed to. Although, at some point people conflated his conception and death as being on the same date.

It is important for why 25 Dec became Christmas though, which is the same reason that 6 January became Christmas in the Eastern Church.

It's certainly far more plausible than the theory that it is copied from a pagan festival that may or may not have existed at this time and on this date, at a time before the Roman Empire became Christian when Christians made efforts to distance themselves form Paganism, that also doesn't explain the difference in the Eastern/Western dates, and is not mentioned by a single person for 1000 years until someone uses it to score sectarian points.

 

[Jumi]

It's certainly far more plausible than the theory that it is copied from a pagan festival that may or may not have existed at this time and on this date, at a time before the Roman Empire became Christian when Christians made efforts to distance themselves form Paganism, that also doesn't explain the difference in the Eastern/Western dates, and is not mentioned by a single person for 1000 years until someone uses it to score sectarian points.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Could have been they wanted to keep the same celebration and ended up finding a reason why it would be acceptable in the new religion, like they did in northern Europe. We have midsummer celebrations that are basically completely pagan, but on paper changed to celebrate John the Baptist's birthday which somehow coincides with midsummer like Yule/Christmas coincides with midwinter.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I am sure that a majority of us recognize the pagan origins of Christmas. But very few if anybody understands the possibly "Satanic" nature of the holiday today. I am here to present the argument that Christmas is Satanic by the Christian definition of Satanic.

The Holiday was originally spent worshiping a specific deity known mainly by two names. The "Horned God" or the "Sun God". The celebration was set on the Summer Solstice when this Horned God was thought to have brought longer and warmer days. This was basically celebrating a God for bringing summer.

However. When the followers of the Judaistic religions came in they took the image of the Horned God and declared it as Satan. This God of the Sun became the very first visual representation of Satan, Goat head/horns, human chest, the goat legs.

Christians and other Judaistic religions stole the holiday worshiping this god after declaring this god as Satan. You are worshiping Satan by celebrating Christmas.

Please present counter arguments and I will refute them.

Christians can sanctify any day/time/event via the gospel. I explain to people that imperfect people cannot be in a utopia, therefore, the Christmas story is the story of Jesus visiting to take away our sin, guilt and punishment--on His cross, in His resurrection, so that trusting Him, we receive eternal life.

 

[Augustus]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Could have been they wanted to keep the same celebration and ended up finding a reason why it would be acceptable in the new religion, like they did in northern Europe. We have midsummer celebrations that are basically completely pagan, but on paper changed to celebrate John the Baptist's birthday which somehow coincides with midsummer like Yule/Christmas coincides with midwinter.

This would mean that at the same time as they were being persecuted and martyred for their refusal to assimilate with pagan practices by Diocletian and his successors the same people chose to overtly copy pagan practices, including a hardline traditionalist sect such as the Donatists who were critical of those who made even a token attempt to compromise with the Romans. This happened over a wide geographical area, while 2 different traditions coordinated their efforts so as their Christmases were based on the same dating principle despite being on different dates. And none of this survives in any form in the historical record despite the high probability it would have been very controversial.

Also John the Baptist is deemed to be 6 months older than Jesus based on Luke 1:36 (which he probably made up).

 

[ChristineM]

Not to sound nit picky, but it was the later 'so-called Christians' who brought trees into their homes.
Christians in Scripture never celebrated the solstice, etc. but only Luke 22:19 the day of Jesus' death.

I never said otherwise. Only that christian were the first to take trees into their homes.

I guess your bible must omit Luke2:8-19, or is it just a matter of interpretation?

 

[Jumi]

This would mean that at the same time as they were being persecuted and martyred for their refusal to assimilate with pagan practices by Diocletian and his successors the same people chose to overtly copy pagan practices, including a hardline traditionalist sect such as the Donatists who were critical of those who made even a token attempt to compromise with the Romans. This happened over a wide geographical area, while 2 different traditions coordinated their efforts so as their Christmases were based on the same dating principle despite being on different dates. And none of this survives in any form in the historical record despite the high probability it would have been very controversial.

We can guess that they wouldn't have consciously copied the celebrations of a pagan practice, though by coincidence they happened at the same time. That would have happened later. At least in Northern Europe since these coincided with pagan practices, they copied much over.

Also remember that Jesus birthdate was the matter of some controversy in the church.

Also John the Baptist is deemed to be 6 months older than Jesus based on Luke 1:36 (which he probably made up).

Interesting coincidence. I'm not sure how Catholics celebrate midsummer, but here it has the same elements as the pagan midsummer and Christmas copies from pagan midwinter.

 

[Sanzbir]

I am sure that a majority of us recognize the pagan origins of Christmas. But very few if anybody understands the possibly "Satanic" nature of the holiday today. I am here to present the argument that Christmas is Satanic by the Christian definition of Satanic.

So by a pretty broad definition. Also it would help if you provided exactly what you believe that definition to be.

The Holiday was originally spent worshiping a specific deity known mainly by two names. The "Horned God" or the "Sun God". The celebration was set on the Summer Solstice when this Horned God was thought to have brought longer and warmer days. This was basically celebrating a God for bringing summer.

However. When the followers of the Judaistic religions came in they took the image of the Horned God and declared it as Satan. This God of the Sun became the very first visual representation of Satan, Goat head/horns, human chest, the goat legs.

Also Krampus. Also Saint Nicholas. Horned God imagery made it into a whole host of non-Satan related things.

Christians and other Judaistic religions stole the holiday worshiping this god after declaring this god as Satan. You are worshiping Satan by celebrating Christmas.

Please present counter arguments and I will refute them.

Ambitious claim. I can think of several counterarguments to this one claim. I look forward to seeing you rebuking all of them.

Christians and other Judaistic religions stole the holiday worshiping this god after declaring this god as Satan. You are worshiping Satan by celebrating Christmas.

Counterarguments #1: "other Judaistic religions" don't celebrate Christmas. Muslims don't even have a calendar that syncs up with the Gregorian. Your claim is false just because of how broad you decided to cast your net.

Christians and other Judaistic religions stole the holiday worshiping this god after declaring this god as Satan. You are worshiping Satan by celebrating Christmas.

Counterarguments #2: Appropriation of a religion's holy day is not the same as worshiping the same entities of that religion on that day. If you apply your logic consistently, this would imply that when the Hellenists converted the Temple of Solomon into a Temple to Zeus, that they worshiped Elohim and not Zeus when using the building.

Do you also claim the Hellenists who prayed to Zeus at the Temple of Solomon were actually worshiping Elohim??

Christians and other Judaistic religions stole the holiday worshiping this god after declaring this god as Satan. You are worshiping Satan by celebrating Christmas.

Counterarguments #3: So the whole claim smacks of ethnocentrism, as you seem to be under the impression that every single Christian celebrating Christmas does so with the Horned God influence.

This is not true, there are plenty of cultures in which the Horned God has made no influence on their particular Christmas celebration, more influenced by an attempt to claim Saturnalia, and not at all influenced by Northern European solstice practices.

Christians and other Judaistic religions stole the holiday worshiping this god after declaring this god as Satan. You are worshiping Satan by celebrating Christmas.

Counterarguments #4: While Christmas was originally tied to the solstice, the date of the celebration has shifted over time (or rather the solstice that has shifted). As a result, they no longer celebrate on the same day that the Horned God was originally worshiped. The date, characters, and traditions have all drifted away from the original premise.

Christians and other Judaistic religions stole the holiday worshiping this god after declaring this god as Satan. You are worshiping Satan by celebrating Christmas.

Counterarguments #5: Only some Christians interpreted the Horned One as Satan. Other Christian missionaries appropriated the character in different ways, like, as one example, Krampus. Since the Horned One was not always interpreted as being Satan, your whole claim that the two should be counted equivalent is questionable at best since one could just as easily argue the Horned One became Krampus or even Santa.

Ohhh, there's plenty of ways to pick apart your statement. I look forward to seeing how you rebut these.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Here's how I see Christmas. There's nothing in the Bible that says we're supposed to follow this tradition. It's not like the Sabbath, for example, which God decreed as a holy day to remember him. It's clealy a tradition that came into being long after the birth of Jesus Christ. I fully accept that it was influenced by other non-Christian traditions. But I believe that the spirit of Christ permeates the season and the holiday. I sense that God smiles on his children when we remember his Son in a special way at this time of year. I can feel his Spirit present in the holiday. It encourages love and helping others. The fact that it helps businesses or has turned into something quite commercial, does not take away it's meaning from me.

I remember my aunt saying that Christmas helps the economy, and I find helps the Jewish business men.
Interesting to me that Jewish merchants were selling religious images especially since Christians are supposed to be walking by faith and Not by sight (sighted images) as per 2 Corinthians 5:7.

I too think of Christmas as a non-biblical tradition and clearly a later tradition, but since Jesus' forewarns that worship is in vain by following men's traditions as mentioned at Matthew 15:9 then what has been re-named as Christmas by men falls into that category.

Seems as if Jesus meant that God smiles on his children when we remember His Son in a special way at the time of the year when Jesus gave the instructions at Luke 22:19 as to how and when to remember him.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Huh? What Christian names were "added" to anything?

At the time of Christ, the December festival Solstice and Saturnalia did Not have Christian names, I fine those celebrations later added a story about the birth of Jesus (who was Not born in December) to the non-biblical festivals.
Thus, later celebrating non-biblical festivals with Christian names attached such as Christ's mass.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I never said otherwise. Only that christian were the first to take trees into their homes.
I guess your bible must omit Luke2:8-19, or is it just a matter of interpretation?

I want to apologize for not making myself more clear.
Christians were Not the first...... but the ' so-called ' Christians ( Christian in name by Not by Scripture ) were.
There is No Christmas celebration in the Scriptures.
Luke 2:8-19 is about the birth (Not birthday celebration ) of Jesus was Not born in December.
I notice in those verses there is No mention of the giving of gifts ( No gift exchanging either ).
There is No mention about the un-numbered magi ( astrologers, sometimes un-biblically called kings )
The reason there is No mention about the magi being at the manger is because they were never at the manger.
The *star* led them to Jesus' enemy in 'Jerusalem' ( Jesus was born in Bethlehem ).
By the time the magi found the child (Not baby) Jesus he was in a house (Not manger ) as per Matthew Chap. 2.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

There are no original versions of the bible left to check, the closest written some 80 years after the original, even that too has changed over the the millennia.
So which bible do you follow?

The Bible's internal harmony I find can be checked as to accuracy or harmony in translation.
No original, but we can consult both the Hebrew and Greek via interlinear translations into English.
True, Scripture is translated in more languages than any other book. ( paraphrase is Not a translation )
A comprehensive concordance puts the Bible in alphabetical order by subject or topic.
Thus, we can check all the cross-reference corresponding verses and passages and see the internal harmony.
For example: Jesus was referring to Psalms 37:9-11 when he said the meek will inherit the Earth at Matthew 5:5.
The apocryphal books simply exclude themselves being out of harmony with the Bible's '66' books.
Plus, those following ' church customs ' or 'church traditions ' which are Not found in Scripture does Not make Scripture as changed, but rather just makes those wrong church teachings as Not found in Scripture.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Surely it is not your perogative to take god place and judge?

To me, reading Luke 22:19 is Not a judgement, but just to follow what Jesus instructed us to do.
To me, Jesus already made the judgement call as to how he wants to be remembered.

 

[Flame]

Neither. It's consumerist.