Is Christmas Christian or "Satanic"?

[Augustus]

The Christians stole the winter solstice holiday off the Pagans and renamed it.

This theory is pretty dubious in light of modern evidence. The earliest source that links the 2 only appears a millennium later.

Given that early Christians went out of their way to differentiate themselves from Pagans, and that it is likely a blatant attempt to paganise Christianity would have proved controversial, we could expect some sources noting dissident Christian groups had this actually happened. This is especially true if it were a top-down attempt by some Emperor or another.

It also doesn't explain the difference between when Eastern and Western Churches celebrate Christmas (and Easter). Dating Christmas from Easter/the Annunciation does cover this and has a stronger historical and theological grounding. Easter developed from the Christianisation of Passover.

It is far more likely that the holidays simply coincided, and so numerous pagan traditions became part of the Christian festivities as populations converted.

So Christmas festivities borrowed much from the pagans, but there was no calculated decision to 'steal and rename' the winter solstice by pretending it was when Jesus was born.

 

[Jumi]

It's from Adversus Iudaeos apparently.

Finding the text, if this is him stating 25th of December then it couldn't have been in any more roundabout way:

And the suffering of this "extermination" was perfected within the times of the lxx hebdomads, under Tiberius Caesar, in the consulate of Rubellius Geminus and Fufius Geminus, in the month of March, at the times of the passover, on the eighth day before the calends of April,120 on the first day of unleavened bread, on which they slew the lamb at even, just as had been enjoined by Moses.121 Accordingly, all the synagogue of Israel did slay Him, saying to Pilate, when he was desirous to dismiss Him, "His blood be upon us, and upon our children; "122 and, "If thou dismiss him, thou art not a friend of Caesar; "123 in order that all things might be fulfilled which had been written of Him.124

Anything else as to date of birth hasn't made it into the translation, if what is quoted above is an allusion to it.

This article is quite good, also explains why Eastern Christmas is January 6.

How December 25 Became Christmas - Biblical Archaeology Society

It seems there were multiple dates in speculation in year 200.

 

[Altfish]

This theory is pretty dubious in light of modern evidence. The earliest source that links the 2 only appears a millennium later.

Given that early Christians went out of their way to differentiate themselves from Pagans, and that it is likely a blatant attempt to paganise Christianity would have proved controversial, we could expect some sources noting dissident Christian groups had this actually happened. This is especially true if it were a top-down attempt by some Emperor or another.

It also doesn't explain the difference between when Eastern and Western Churches celebrate Christmas (and Easter). Dating Christmas from Easter/the Annunciation does cover this and has a stronger historical and theological grounding. Easter developed from the Christianisation of Passover.

It is far more likely that the holidays simply coincided, and so numerous pagan traditions became part of the Christian festivities as populations converted.

So Christmas festivities borrowed much from the pagans, but there was no calculated decision to 'steal and rename' the winter solstice by pretending it was when Jesus was born.

Interesting. Can you provide a link.
Christmas certainly has a pagan tradition as it took over from the Winter Solstice (shortest day) celebrations. Many of the 'symbols' of Christmas have pagan/non-Christian roots.
Here is a fact sheet from the admittedly biased Humanist UK organisation..
http://www.humanismforschools.org.uk/pdfs/religious festivals and ceremonies.pdf

 

[HonestJoe]

Please present counter arguments and I will refute them.

Christians didn’t steal the holiday, they replaced it with their own. Though they stole many of the traditions and elements of earlier festivals, they redirected the focus of worship to Jesus and God. No aspect of the Christian Christmas involves worship of anything that might be deemed “Satanic” as you describe, though there could be elements of that background which are brought back in via the growing secular aspects of the holiday or by modern Pagans reintroducing them at this time of year.

 

[Grandliseur]

In English. All those places where the popular name for St. Nicholas and the popular name for Lucifer aren't anagrams, we're cool with Christmas, I guess?

Christmas is the old Saturnalia, a pagan festival. It is not for Christians. But, each does as s/he wants.

 

[Augustus]

Finding the text, if this is him stating 25th of December then it couldn't have been in any more roundabout way:

He isn't claimed to have proposed the date for Christmas, but equated 14 Nisan in the year Jesus was crucified with March 25.

The fixing of this date is what is important. Easter was the major celebration and significantly predates Christmas. Some even saw birthdays as being 'pagan' so not to be celebrated.

Having a date for the Annunciation allowed later people to calculate a birthdate of 9 months after the Annunciation which also explains why the Eastern Church has a different date as they used the Greek calendar. They have 6 April and 6 January for the corresponding dates.

 

[Augustus]

Interesting. Can you provide a link.

This one is pretty good https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/how-december-25-became-christmas/

Christmas certainly has a pagan tradition as it took over from the Winter Solstice (shortest day) celebrations. Many of the 'symbols' of Christmas have pagan/non-Christian roots.

This I fully agree with.

It is also plausible that the popularity of Christmas was significantly aided by the fact that it did coincide with pre-existing traditions that people liked.

 

[Altfish]

This one is pretty good https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/how-december-25-became-christmas/

This I fully agree with.

It is also plausible that the popularity of Christmas was significantly aided by the fact that it did coincide with pre-existing traditions that people liked.

Thanks for the link, I'll read it later.
Yes, I believe that early Christians 'adopted' or maybe just 'put up with' existing customs as a bargaining chip for acceptance of Christianity

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Christmas is the old Saturnalia, a pagan festival. It is not for Christians. But, each does as s/he wants.

Saturnalia is the Roman midwinter festival, but other than timing, what's it got to do with Christmas? Saturnalia is far from the only pre-Christian midwinter festival which has lent elements to modern Christmas.

Before television or reliable central heating, a big communal celebration to celebrate the half way point of winter was a very natural thing, regardless of religion. I'm sorry you feel the need to try to find something sinister in something that brings joy to many.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Thanks for the link, I'll read it later.
Yes, I believe that early Christians 'adopted' or maybe just 'put up with' existing customs as a bargaining chip for acceptance of Christianity

If you do much historical reading, borrowing, re purposing, and straight up appropriation of cultural elements is extremely common whenever two cultures come into contact. It bemuses me why so many people are desperate to try to demonise this particular example of an anthropological commonplace.

 

[Augustus]

Yes, I believe that early Christians 'adopted' or maybe just 'put up with' existing customs as a bargaining chip for acceptance of Christianity

Or that people simply brought their own traditions with them as they converted. This is what tends to happen with religions anyway.

So this spread from the bottom up rather than the top down.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Or that people simply brought their own traditions with them as they converted. This is what tends to happen with religions anyway.

So this spread from the bottom up rather than the top down.

Or even both!

 

[Grandliseur]

Saturnalia is the Roman midwinter festival, but other than timing, what's it got to do with Christmas? Saturnalia is far from the only pre-Christian midwinter festival which has lent elements to modern Christmas.

Before television or reliable central heating, a big communal celebration to celebrate the half way point of winter was a very natural thing, regardless of religion. I'm sorry you feel the need to try to find something sinister in something that brings joy to many.

The dancing around the tree and the star on the tree are pagan traditions. God got very angry at the Israelites when they went into idolatry.
The giving of glory to Santa for good gifts should be given to God.

But, you and everybody else do as they like.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

The dancing around the tree

Is there much dancing around the tree at Christmas where you live? Never seen that, myself

and the star on the tree are pagan traditions.

Citation?

God got very angry at the Israelites when they went into idolatry.

Unless you believe the tree itself has power of some kind, it's not idolatry

The giving of glory to Santa for good gifts should be given to God.

If Santa gives gifts to celebrate the birth of Christ, that seems pretty glorifying of God to me

But, you and everybody else do as they like.

I wasn't asking your permission

 

[Faithofchristian]

Is Christmas Christian or "Satanic" ?

Well for one it's sure not Satanic, That's for sure.

As to why would something to be Satanic be found in giving Glory and Praise to God the Father and his Son Christ Jesus. When in fact Satan is God the Father's and Christ Jesus number one adversary.

There's nothing in the Scriptures to support Christmas. But if Christians take a day and wants to hold it up to the Lord Christ Jesus there's nothing wrong in that. As long as we give God the Father the Glory and Praise for sending his Son Christ Jesus into this world.

Therefore to take the day of Christmas and hold it up to God the Father, For sending his Son into this world. There's nothing wrong in that, As long as We give our thanks to God the Father and not to ourselves.

 

[dawny0826]

I am sure that a majority of us recognize the pagan origins of Christmas. But very few if anybody understands the possibly "Satanic" nature of the holiday today. I am here to present the argument that Christmas is Satanic by the Christian definition of Satanic.

The Holiday was originally spent worshiping a specific deity known mainly by two names. The "Horned God" or the "Sun God". The celebration was set on the Summer Solstice when this Horned God was thought to have brought longer and warmer days. This was basically celebrating a God for bringing summer.

However. When the followers of the Judaistic religions came in they took the image of the Horned God and declared it as Satan. This God of the Sun became the very first visual representation of Satan, Goat head/horns, human chest, the goat legs.

Christians and other Judaistic religions stole the holiday worshiping this god after declaring this god as Satan. You are worshiping Satan by celebrating Christmas.

Please present counter arguments and I will refute them.

Christmas is unnecessary and for some, encourages behavior counter to Christ's example. It also encourages behavior that aligns with Christ's instruction to include charitable works and an outpouring of love and care for fellow man.

Christians can certainly be guilty of doing things that are more reflective of Satan than God. Christians can become distracted from a righteous path.

Worship is deliberate. I mess up horribly at times, but, my allegiance is never willfully shifted to Satan.

 

[Jumi]

He isn't claimed to have proposed the date for Christmas, but equated 14 Nisan in the year Jesus was crucified with March 25.

So, having the 8th day before april be the crucifixion day according to him. Later it becomes the date in which he was conceived, but he is given credit for giving a date. So when was that connection made?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I mess up horribly at times, but, my allegiance is never willfully shifted to Satan.

I think that's the real crux here. You can't be "tricked" into worshipping Satan.

 

[Mindmaster]

However. When the followers of the Judaistic religions came in they took the image of the Horned God and declared it as Satan. This God of the Sun became the very first visual representation of Satan, Goat head/horns, human chest, the goat legs.

Christians and other Judaistic religions stole the holiday worshiping this god after declaring this god as Satan. You are worshiping Satan by celebrating Christmas.

Please present counter arguments and I will refute them.

The Horned God, also known simply as "God" to the pagans was never the Christian devil. So, no... They aren't worshiping Satan, and my idea of Satan is far closer to that guy than a Christian devil.

The pagan holiday is Yule (4th Century A.D. possibly older), or the Winter Solstice for those whom mark their events by Solar/Lunar calendars. No Devil was ever a part of any of this... To paraphase a ritual during the Winter Solstice many Wiccans would use (the God being played by the Priest in this section of the text).

From Raymond Buckland's Book of Complete Witchcraft -

"Priest: 'I fell into deep darkness and death I knew.

Yet was I of star-seed. On the tail of a comet I rent the velvet darkness of everlasting light.

Ablaze with glory, I was reborn, To start again the perennial cycle of guardianship

That evermore drives me through death and birth alike.
With the companionship of our Lady I face
into the wind,
Knowing that we fly upon wings of time,
Through timeless worlds, together.'

Covener: 'All hail, the Sun God!'

All: 'All hail, the Sun God!'*

Covener: 'All hail the death and birth of Yule.'

All: 'All hail!'"


Your analogy is equivalent to me accepting that the Democrats are part of some Luciferian conspiracy because Alex Jones says so, even though I know he knows absolutely jack and squat about Luciferians, Satanists, and anything else occult. You can see exactly what that ritual is and what it's about, so why spread the same drivel that lead to witch hunts and murder in the past? It's terrible really, I can only see the first part of your post as troll bait in relation to the finale.

 

[Augustus]

So, having the 8th day before april be the crucifixion day according to him. Later it becomes the date in which he was conceived, but he is given credit for giving a date. So when was that connection made?

The connection to Christmas?

No one can be sure. Seems to have gradually evolved sometime in the 3rd C.