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Is Christianity consistant w/ judaism?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by jewscout, Apr 8, 2005.

  1. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    such as?
    which,from a jewish perspective, it's not.

    Theologically? such as?

    :banghead3
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    No, you'd rather engage in ignorant ad hominem. Where have I referred to Christians as lunatics?
     
  3. angellous_evangellous

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    Again, I am referring specifically to the Angel of the Lord speaking as God, not seeing God in the bush. It is quite possible that Moses did not see the Angel, which is not an issue.
     
  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    To begin with ...

     
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  5. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    no Moses did see an angel of HaShem, but he did not see an image of HaShem

    So G-d is telling you that Moses saw no image of G-d at this event, he saw an angel but that is a far cry from seeing HaShem Himself
     
  6. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    I think that's certainly true. The more I study, the closer I draw towards Judaism but it's because I see Judaism as the roots of Christianity and feel drawn to understand it in order to understand my own beliefs. Now I'm talking in circles. :p
     
  7. angellous_evangellous

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    In the same way that Moses saw the Angel of the Lord and not G-d, the disciples of Jesus saw Jesus being G-d and yet did not die. God is invisible, yet visible in the same way. We have precedence in the Scriptures.
     
  8. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    And, 'in the same way as' spinach is a green, I like peppers on my Italian sausage ...

    angellous_evangellous, do you have any clue what 'in the same way as' means? If so, your analogy shows no evidence of it.
     
  9. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    this makes no sense
    you are trying to make a connection where none exists
    Moses saw one of the ministering Angels, not G-d...this is in no way like the idea of jesus being G-d

    it's like comparing apples to a Yugo
     
  10. angellous_evangellous

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    Hoever, the Angel spoke the words of God as God in the text.
     
  11. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    there's a difference between reciting the "I Have a Dream Speech" and actually being Martin Luther King Jr.

    i can recite that speech...does that make me Dr. King??????????

    quote me a verse where it even says the angel spoke?
     
  12. angellous_evangellous

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    Haha. Good point. :biglaugh:
     
  13. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Dr. King, it does......

    (you better come up with something better than this AE, I can't hold em off for long....;) )
     
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  14. angellous_evangellous

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    A reading of the text below makes it appear as if Dr. King is giving the speech at that precise moment in time, and not a much later recitation. If we continue with your analogy, it looks like Dr. King himself is talking...

    There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, "I will go over and see this strange sight-why the bush does not burn up."


    4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!"

    And Moses said, "Here I am." 5 "Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground." 6 Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
     
  15. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    ahhh i see part of our problem is the translation...here's one provided by Chabad.org

    as though to mean this is one of many angels who serve G-d
    where as yours says...
    you see i see 3 figures here, an Angel, Moses, and Hashem whereas you seem to intrepret the Angel and HaShem being one and the same

    to continue w/ my apparently popular analogy...
    i say that you AE, myself and Dr. King are there where as you think that Dr. King and I are the same person...

    again another inconsistancy between the 2 faiths...

    even your verses say nothing of the Angel talking...just G-d and only after Moses had seen the burning bush and an angel...before Moses decides to investigate HaShem doesn't seem to be in the scene...
     
  16. angellous_evangellous

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    Fortunately I am not limited by faulty translations.

    If you can read Hebrew, I have it below. You will see also that YHWH does not have an article. To be consistent in the translation that you provided, we would also have to do the same thing with YHWH, like the Jehova's witnesses try to do with theos in John 1.

    To be consistent, your translation should read:
    An angel of a lord

    &#1489; &#1493;&#1463;&#1497;&#1468;&#1461;&#1512;&#1464;&#1488; &#1502;&#1463;&#1500;&#1456;&#1488;&#1463;&#1498;&#1456; &#1497;&#1456;&#1492;&#1493;&#1464;&#1492; &#1488;&#1461;&#1500;&#1464;&#1497;&#1493;, &#1489;&#1468;&#1456;&#1500;&#1463;&#1489;&#1468;&#1463;&#1514;-&#1488;&#1461;&#1513;&#1473;--&#1502;&#1460;&#1514;&#1468;&#1493;&#1465;&#1498;&#1456; &#1492;&#1463;&#1505;&#1468;&#1456;&#1504;&#1462;&#1492;; &#1493;&#1463;&#1497;&#1468;&#1463;&#1512;&#1456;&#1488;, &#1493;&#1456;&#1492;&#1460;&#1504;&#1468;&#1461;&#1492; &#1492;&#1463;&#1505;&#1468;&#1456;&#1504;&#1462;&#1492; &#1489;&#1468;&#1465;&#1506;&#1461;&#1512; &#1489;&#1468;&#1464;&#1488;&#1461;&#1513;&#1473;, &#1493;&#1456;&#1492;&#1463;&#1505;&#1468;&#1456;&#1504;&#1462;&#1492;, &#1488;&#1461;&#1497;&#1504;&#1462;&#1504;&#1468;&#1493;&#1468; &#1488;&#1467;&#1499;&#1468;&#1464;&#1500;. 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush; and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
     
  17. angellous_evangellous

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    I do appreciate your view that there are three persons present: the angel, Moses, and the LORD. However, how many people who were actually there may be unanswerable in the text because of the lack of articles (the).

    EDIT: I do have suggestions as to why the article is supplied for both:

    1) I seriously doubt that YHWH ever appears in the Hebrew Scriptures with the article. There is only one covanet name for G-d, but many other descriptive names for El. There is no need to designate which YHWH we are talking about, there is only one. There are several descrptives for El that carry the article. Elohim does, but elohim is also used as "lord" in reference to men, YHWH is reserved for G-d alone as His covanent name.

    2) The angel of the Lord construction when it appears in the singular always designates a special messenger who speaks as G-d in a special way. This would give exegetical precedence for translating "the" instead of "an."
     
  18. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    well if you want to get technical about it your text DOES say "an angel of a lord"
    "the" is usually prefixed by a "ha" ( i can't type in hebrew on my computer sorry) w/ the letter "Heh", such as HaShem - "The Name" or HaGofen - "The vine";something your hebrew doesn't have...technically there is no way of say "A" something in hebrew (at least i'm pretty sure on that Deut or Standing can correct me on that)
    but literally it should probably be translated: "and angel of YHVH..." but we put an "an" in there because it makes more sense when you translate it
     
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  19. angellous_evangellous

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    Hey, you brought it up. For the presence or absence of the article to have any weight, you must be consistent. In many foreign languages, the noun can have the force of the article without the article actually being present. Fortunately, I did not have to look far to prove this point: it is present right there in the text in question.

    So we see two readings are possible, and the answers to some questions have to be sought elsewhere.

    "An" is not the only translation that makes sense here. "The" works for both nouns using the same syntactical reasoning.
     
  20. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    1)actually it appears in scripture and in siddurim (prayer books) w/ prefixes alot...one that comes to mind is Sheh-YHVH, it's in the mincha prayer in the afternoon...can't remember where off the top of my head tho...

    2) again it misses the prefix (though my hebrew grammer isn't the best admittidly i could be wrong)...either way there are a number of ministering angels who work in service of HaShem such as Michael, Gabriael, Uriel, and even Samael...
     
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