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Is Christianity consistant w/ judaism?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by jewscout, Apr 8, 2005.

  1. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    this was in a previous thread and i just wanted to say a few words...

    I personally don't think that Christianity is theologically consistent w/ judaism for some of the following reasons...
    1)the concept of the Trinity (and i know not all christians are trinitarians but many are)-this goes against the concept of One indivisible Divine being
    2)Jesus as the Messiah, or the son of G-d or G-d or anything intereprting him as nothing more than a dead 1st century jew (if as, Deut. points out, he existed at all but that's neither here nor there)
    3)abandonment of the Mitzvot


    AE admits that most jews probably wouldn't agree with christianity, considering it "blasphemy"...

    but really...
    is christianity theologically consistant with judaism?
     
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  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Every religion has its lunatic fringe, but clearly the deification of the Messiah is anathema to Judaism. Christianity is best understood as gentile parasitic fiction.
     
  3. standing_on_one_foot

    standing_on_one_foot Well-Known Member

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    No, I wouldn't say it is...otherwise, why would it be a different religion?
     
  4. Dr. Khan

    Dr. Khan Member

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    Christianity is a jewish creation. Each and every writer is Jewish. The only compatibility between the two is the inheritance of the promises from the old without the curses.

    Now this may hurt a little the new covenant is better in that it has better promises.These promises are so powerful that they make the the promises of the old more powerful even to the individual. And they had to be because the gentile is such a wild animal.
     
  5. Dr. Khan

    Dr. Khan Member

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    Because gentiles are different. If you have a new testament handy Ephesians 2:13-22 is a very good discription of the plan the G-d of the Jews had in mind through the Mashaich.
    Jesus.
     
  6. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    curses?:sarcastic

    promises like believe in Jesus or burn in hell?
    wait didn't you say the promises were the same as the old only "without the curses" whatever that means...:sarcastic
     
  7. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    I direct your eyes to my signature...taken from Rambam's 13 prinicples of faith which is taken from the Torah.
     
  8. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Well, as with everything, this is subject to a pretty wide range of opinions.... but I would have to say.... for the most part..... yes.

    When she delves into her own mystery, the Catholic Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."

    And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

    To Israel, his chosen, God revealed himself as the only One: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD; and you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might." Through the prophets, God calls Israel and all nations to turn to him, the one and only God: "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.. . To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 'Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength.'"

    Both of our faiths worship the one true God, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." and in this belief, we are all united.

    Scott
     
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  9. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    Misunderstanding what scott? to be the Moshiach an individual must accomplish the tasks set in the prophecies, otherwise he is not the Moshiach...
    if he was truely of the correct bloodline he still did not acomplish the task required...
     
  10. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    That would be better discussed in a thread of its own, I think.... but in general, you've been here long enough to see that both sides of a topic can be debated to death... the prophecies were VERY well known to the Apostles (Paul was very well versed in your faith) and other Jewish converts to this day. You would have to assume that they are ignorant of Judaism or insane.... I choose to say that we have a misunderstanding, and leave it at that.

    I prefer to focus on God, and the things we agree on..... Jesus as the Moshiach or not, we still love and respect the Jews.... and I believe we have a great deal in common.

    Jewish liturgy and Christian liturgy.
    A better knowledge of the Jewish people's faith and religious life as professed and lived even now can help our better understanding of certain aspects of Christian liturgy. For both Jews and Christians Sacred Scripture is an essential part of their respective liturgies: in the proclamation of the Word of God, the response to this word, prayer of praise and intercession for the living and the dead, invocation of God's mercy. In its characteristic structure the Liturgy of the Word originates in Jewish prayer. The Liturgy of the Hours and other liturgical texts and formularies, as well as those of our most venerable prayers, including the Lord's Prayer, have parallels in Jewish prayer. The Eucharistic Prayers also draw their inspiration from the Jewish tradition. The relationship between Jewish liturgy and Christian liturgy, but also their differences in content, are particularly evident in the great feasts of the liturgical year, such as Passover. Christians and Jews both celebrate the Passover. For Jews, it is the Passover of history, tending toward the future; for Christians, it is the Passover fulfilled in the death and Resurrection of Christ, though always in expectation of its definitive consummation.


    With love above all else,
    Scott
     
  11. almifkhar

    almifkhar Active Member

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    i am with jewscout here. i don't think so either.
     
  12. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    Thats true...as evident in my "Is Jesus the Messiah" thread from back in the day...
    http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6327

    i should hope so...he was a jew;)
     
  13. angellous_evangellous

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    I figured that you were responding to me with this quote.

    Some food for thought:
    1) The Jewish apocalyptic book of Enoch basically defies the Son of Man, and we find the same terminology in John and other Gospels as to the role of Jesus as Messiah
    2) All of Jesus's disciples were Jews, and all of the apostles
    3) Paul was a rabbi
    4) Jesus was a teacher of the OT - and the Gospels record that the Jews killed Him for blasphemy. Accepting continued revelation can be a hard thing to do...
    5) Much of Christian theology is a reinterpretation of the OT as we have taught from the beginning that Jesus and Christian theology is the fulfillment of the OT

    In response to your points:
    1) The doctrine of the Trinity upholds the precious revelation that God is Creator, divine, and One. If Jews accept, as the apostles and Paul did, that God reveals Himself as Christ in Jesus, then we can accept this further authoritative revelation of God as One.
    2) You did not make a significant point here. God choosing his Messiah is His perogative. He can name Jesus Messiah or anyone else, Christians simply accept that Jesus fulfills OT prophesy concerning the Messiah
    3) Abandonment of the Mitzvot - you are going to have to define the Mitzvot here. Jesus was a teacher of the OT, not a supporter of Jewish commentary...

    Christianity is an extention of Judaism with theology reinterpreted through Jesus (a Jew) and his apostles (who were also Jews, and one trained rabbi, Paul). The OT was given to us by prophets, and through Jesus and the apostles, was interpreted by prophets instead of by regular people.

    After Christianity came on the scene, Judaism continued its course. The Jews following rabbinic commentary continued to believe that Jesus was a blasphemer and Christians were idol worshippers. It should come as to surprise that a religion which rejected a leader should continue on its course, continue developing, and continue to hold the leader in suspect, even though he offered an inspired interpretation which is a fulfillment of prophesy.
     
  14. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    To accept that HaShem is made up of parts and not whole within Himself would be to take away from His infinite nature, for something that is made up of parts is something that can become finite, that is something that HaShem can not be.

    on the contrary i think this is the biggest point that i made...
    Yes HaShem chooses the Moshiach in His time, not ours...
    Christians accept jesus as the messiah
    but jews do not...the fact that jews do not accept Jesus as the Moshiach, as well as his "divinity", is probably one of the biggest rifts between the two faith...a person, in the jewish belief, can not be the moshiach until he accomplishes the tasks set for him. Jesus did not accomplish those things, so he becomes yet another false messiah in a long history of false messiahs for the jews.
    Mitzvot...the laws of the Torah...the 613 Commandments...that many christians hold Jesus did away with through the crucifixtion...the Laws that Jews believe are a covenant w/ HaShem that will stand even in the Messianic redemption

    and some food for thought...
    yes because crucifixtion was a jewish custom:sarcastic
     
  15. angellous_evangellous

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    I think that #1 is the only significant point now...

    God as all-powerful can choose to interact with nature in any way that He sees fit. He can be both finite and infinite at the same time because of His power. We have precedence for God interacting with nature in the OT in a finite way: the angel of the Lord and God speaking. God appeared as the Angel of the Lord: both finite and in one place at the same time. If God can appear as an Angel, he can appear as flesh. The interaction with nature by means of speaking means that a special interaction of God enters into nature.

    Christians consider the Incarnation to be the greatest miracle in the history of the cosmos.
     
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  16. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    to say that HaShem can become finite is to say that He can be corpreal...that is in direct contrast of the one of the major tenants of the jewish faith

    If HaShem can become corpreal then an image can be made of Him which is also in direct contrast to the Laws...the prohibition on Idols is not just to keep the Jews from slipping into idolitry but also because HaShem has no form and therefore there is no representation that can be made by man that can come close to His nature

    To say that HaShem can become finite means that limitations can then be placed on Him which destroys the whole point of belief in an all powerful Divine force...i mean if He can be limited by Fininity (is that even a word?:areyoucra ) then He can't be all powerful

    have you considered that the angels of the Lord are just that ...angels?
     
  17. angellous_evangellous

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    The Angel of the Lord is in contrast to angels of the Lord. The Angel of the Lord appears to biblical characters and prophets in the OT, giving the words of God. It can be interpreted as 1) a regular angel of the Lord, 2) an anthropoligcal revelation of God, 3) God himself appearing in angelic form. Christians have interpreted it as all three, and I am sure that we can find Jews interpreting it the same way, but I do not remember if I have seen it.

    There are no limits to the power of God. He can be in a finite place (eg, revealing Himself to a person or 'the spirit of the Lord' coming upon a person in the OT) without removing his omnipotence and omnipresence. Thus, Christians consider it a heresy to say that Jesus was not omnipotent and omnipresent. It is orthodox (Christianity) rather to say that the divine qualities of God infinately flowed in and out of the finite human body of Christ in a manner which made him the exact image of God, and God retains the finite nature that makes Him Divine.
     
  18. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    examples of haShem taking finite form in the Tanach if you please...

    "You will not be able to see My face, for no human can see my face and live"
    (Exodus 33:18-20).
    "You did not see any form on the day G-d spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of fire"
    (Deuteronomy 4:15)
    and this, as i pointed out, is one of the INconsitancies between Judaism and Christianity...
    just like the question of the Messiahship and the Laws of the Torah

    Though christianity can claim a connection to Judaism it's theology is very different from Judaism
     
  19. angellous_evangellous

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    Though christianity can claim a connection to Judaism it's theology is very different from Judaism.

    On this we agree, as I have stated before, Judaism predates Xnty and continued on rather unaffected by it and developed into its present form.

    If the OT were not around, Xnty would not be here.

    EDIT:
    Jewscout, if you wish for me to dialoug with you, please use English references to works instead of Hebrew. I know some Hebrew, but mostly only in Hebrew script, and I don't know all of the references to different sections of the OT by their Hebrew transliterations.:eek:
     
  20. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    Tanach=what christians call the "Old Testament"
     
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