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Featured Is Christianity coherent?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by RedDragon94, Jul 22, 2017.

  1. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    yes, everything happens for a reason, but the christian god works in mysterious ways, so many reasons aren't clear for us to understand, for example miracles.
     
  2. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    Where is his proof showing God sent the plates?

    Any fair minded person who has studied the life of the Final Prophet of God concludes, he had a profound experience, was receiving information from beyond this World, was utterly convicted of the mission he was charged with.

    Karen Armstrong wrote, “His life was a tireless campaign against greed, injustice and arrogance. He realised that Arabia was at a turning point and that the old way of thinking would no longer suffice, so he wore himself out in the creative effort to evolve an entirely new solution.”

    Ishmael was to have many descendants because he was Abrahams son but he was not the Son of the promise and covenant and can never be so.

    SO being brother to Isaac is not the same as being the descendant of Isaac and Jacob.

    The covenants are clear as is the last covenant in Jeremiah. You don't think Ishmael is greater than King David, Solomon, Jeremiah or Jesus Christ, surely.

    You try so hard but fall at the first hurdle. Ishmael descendants were to be a might nation. He never made a covenant with him. He was blessed.[/QUOTE]

    I showed you Abraham pbuh explained the Covenant to BOTH his Sons, Ishmael and Isaac, peace be upon them.

    It is also referenced in your Bible:

    Genesis 9:1 And God said to Abraham, “As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

    Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

    2 And I will make of thee a Great Nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

    3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    Genesis 15 God’s Covenant with Abram:
    5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphra'tes,

    Genesis 17:20
    And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a Great Nation.

    You can not escape the Covenant the Muslims live under goes back to Abraham pbuh. The Covenant you live under goes back to Saul the self appointed apostle, and has nothing to do with God, his Prophet Jesus pbuh.

    The following doesn't apply to you either: John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
     
  3. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    This continues the problem of your over the top judgmental view that all those that do not agree with you concerning the interpretation of scripture are liars.

    LOL
     
  4. RESOLUTION

    RESOLUTION Active Member

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    You miss my point. I believe the Book of Mormon as false as your book.

    There is no final Prophet there is only ONE MESSIAH that was Jesus Christ.


    Joel 2.
    27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

    28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

    29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.


    Prophecy is a gift of God, many prophesie today the children of God born of the Spirit.
    Omitting a name and calling someone a final prophet of God has no weight or merit in the truth that God
    has already revealed. Unless of course you mean the Son of God Jesus Christ.
    Whom told everyone that those who believe in him will do what he did, yes they would do greater things.
    Mahomet did nothing which would have revealed him as a Prophet of the Most High God.
    Neither has the god of the Quran. For their is only ONE God and he has made the end known from the beginning.
    Mahomet was never part of any of Gods prophecies.

    As for Karen Armstrong she speaks evil of the truth about Jesus Christ and is not in line with the True Phr
    ophets of the most high God. It means absolutely nothing her writing for she is not born of the truth
    and the Spirit. Karen Armstrong gives personal opinion her words will be forgotten eventually and so will
    yours but the Word of God will never perish.




    2.You did not show me anything you have nothing in those writings which when showing the Promise God made
    about Isaac, shows anything but God making Ishmaels descendants a great nation. However they are never
    and never will be greater than the descednants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    I know as you have read my posts and have seen Gods word, you know you have nothing to base your beliefs
    in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, regarding the Covenants and the descendant whom God would bless
    all the nations of the earth.

    Verses you omitted. Genesis 17: 19-21.

    19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac:
    and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

    20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful,
    and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

    21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac,
    which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.


    So as I said, Ishmael blessed and as we know there are many mighty nations but we see God clearly tells you
    what you don't want to hear or acknowledge.

    Isaac is the son of Gods Covenant and it is his him whom the promises are made to.

    Ishmael to be a great Nation but through Isaac was there to be many nations. From Sarah was Kings to come
    from her and she is the Mother of Nations.

    Gen. 17:15-16
    And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai your wife, you shalt not call her name Sarai,
    but Sarah shall her name be.
    And I will bless her, and give you a son also of her:
    yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.


    So Ishmaels descendants to be a great Nation but Sarah the Mother of many nations through her Son Isaac
    the Son of Gods Covenant.Clearly anyone can be circumcised and be a Jew as Abraham was, But the truth
    is all of Abrahams, decendants and even servants and slaves were circumcised but they were the same as
    Ishmael. Ishmael just blessed. But we know when they cease to obey God they cease to be his people.

    King James Bible Genesis 17:23.
    And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.


    Circumcision was a sign of Gods Covenant with Abraham.
    But Ishmael never had a covenant and we see God ensured no one could make the covenant with Isaac
    about Ishmael or anyone else circumcised. For God made Sarah the mother of Nation's and
    Kings of People were to be born of her descendant Isaac.

    The only Son born of Abrahams wife was Isaac. Ishmael was born of a servant.
    Sarah, the Mother of Nations and we see King David and Solomon came from her descedants
    as did Jesus Christ the Son of God.

    God is not fooled even then he knew what would be now. Even now he makes the truth plain to you and
    anyone who would fall from the truth. SARAH :- is the only woman he made the Mother of Nations
    and Ishmael was NOT her son and therefore nothing to do with the promise and covenant through
    Isaac.

    -

    There is NO Covenant with Ishmael only blessing to be a great Nation.
    We see Sarah and her descendant is the Mother of Nation's and indeed it was through her son Isaac that
    the Kings like Saul, David and Solomon etc all came. It is you who do not know the Word of God and the promises he made. Or rather you ignore the truth that there was NEVER a covenant with Ishmael.Anyone can be
    part of Abrahams Covenant through circumcision. Slaves and bought men included.But only Sarah was chosen
    to have a son/descendant whom God made a Covenant with. FACT


    Do you know what the bible teaches about those who come with a different belief about what Christ says?

    2 John 1.

    7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

    8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

    9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

    11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    You see the bible in the OT does not agree with you.

     
  5. RESOLUTION

    RESOLUTION Active Member

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    Gen. 17:15-16
    And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai your wife, you shalt not call her name Sarai,
    but Sarah shall her name be.
    And I will bless her, and give you a son also of her:
    yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.



    Genesis 17: 19-21.

    19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac:
    and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

    20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful,
    and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

    21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac,
    which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.


    Not laughing out loud, now - are you?

    Isaiah 54:17.

    17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.

    I see your god cannot provide you with the truth to make a statement you can justify.
    But we see the true God ensures his word is kept and that you are the one who is shown to be without
    foundation of truth in what you write.


    Only Isaac the descendant of the Mother of Nations; Sarah. Also the Mother of Kings of people.

    So you know... Jacob was the younger son of twins but Esau sold his birthright.
    We knew the older would serve the younger. Just so you don't think of trying to make the 'eldest son' issue
    a try. After all we know that there was only ONE SON which Sarah gave birth to.



     
  6. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    The more awesome people will be descended from known liars and tricksters?

    Of course it focuses on Isaac. It's a Hebrew text.

    I would argue you can't have Judaism without the country of Judah, which didn't exist yet. Jews came to be after passing through the Canaanite, Hebrew, and Israelite phases first.

    If I were Sarah, I'd ask for a refund. She never even had kings for sons until millennia later and even THEN the monarchy only lasted a bit before being torn down again.
    I will. LOL!

    How many times have the people been enslaved and tortured and killed and such by practically every empire in the region for millennia again? God's army can be defeated by IRON. It's like they're fairies or something.
     
  7. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    I voted yes, but the op question is abstract.
     
  8. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    She's blind to the corruption spread by the stiff necked Israelites, Jeremiah 8:8

    Indeed the Angel told Hagar, (may God be pleased with her) that her son would be fruitful, then the corrupt scribes wrote;

    Genesis 16:12 "And he shall be a wild a.ss of a man; his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him..."

    These were the Israelites that were taken into captivity. Another group called the Samaritans kept their own Torah, which differs in 6,000 places to the Masoretic text.

    http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/132004/the-other-torah

    In their version of Genesis 16:12 it reads, "... he will be a fruitful man: his hand shall be with everyone, and every man's hand shall be with him..."

    The Jewish Scholars know full well racist Scribes made changes:

    Early rabbinic sources, from around 200 CE, mention several passages of Scripture in which the conclusion is inevitable that the ancient reading must have differed from that of the present text. . . . Rabbi Simon ben Pazzi (3rd century) calls these readings “emendations of the Scribes” (tikkune Soferim; Midrash Genesis Rabbah xlix. 7), assuming that the Scribes actually made the changes. This view was adopted by the later Midrash and by the majority of Masoretes.

    In other words, the Masorites themselves felt they had received a partly corrupted text.

    Masoretic Text - Wikipedia
     
  9. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    Jesus pbuh told you a Prophet was to come, though you don't have the Injeel, there are still references to this Prophet in the New Testament. He sounds very similar indeed to the one mentioned in Deut 18:18.

    The Jews had a everlasting covenant with God. No one is denying that. Of 7.4 Billion people on the planet, Jews number some 20 Million people. To suggest God had no plan for the non Jews would be beyond a joke.

    God makes clear in the Qur'an, that He alone decides to whom He will raise as His Prophet. He can bless people as He sees fit.

    Allah has sent down the best statement: a consistent Book wherein is reiteration. The skins shiver therefrom of those who fear their Lord; then their skins and their hearts relax at the remembrance of Allah . That is the guidance of Allah by which He guides whom He wills. And one whom Allah leaves astray - for him there is no guide. Qur'an 39:23

    Yes he did nothing, only took people out of idolatry, gave them Monotheism and showed Billions of people how to worship God and lead God fearing lives. Banished gambling, dealing in interest, alcohol and food dedicated to anything other than God Himself and many other things like regular prayers, giving in Charity, fasting etc

    The God of the Qur'an is the one Jesus pbuh prayed to. 'My AaLah, my AaLah why have you forsaken me.' əlahí əlahí ləmáh šəvaqtáni

    Do you not consider, [O Muhammad], those who were given a portion of the Scripture? They are invited to the Scripture of Allah that it should arbitrate between them; then a party of them turns away, and they are refusing.

    That is because they say, "Never will the Fire touch us except for [a few] numbered days," and [because] they were deluded in their religion by what they were inventing. Qur'an 3:23-24

    This one is for people like you ....

    And they say, "None will enter Paradise except one who is a Jew or a Christian." That is [merely] their wishful thinking, Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful." Qur'an 2:111

    I don't know what she wrote about Jesus pbuh. What every Historian does know is, Jesus pbuh was a man, not divine or God in anyway. There's simply no way you come to Earth, do something tat makes no sense; crucify yourself to please yourself, not bother to preserve your Scripture and not live a complete way of life as guidance for mankind.


    They live under the covenant given to Abraham pbuh, as his descendants. The brethren of the Israelites who actually listened to God, rather than shunning Him in favour of their Rabbis, and Clergy.

    The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

    They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.

    They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.

    It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it. Qur'an 9:30-33


    I read mostly wishful thinking on your part, and the ever changing words of the Bible, written for the most part by unknown authors.



    The Nations of Isaac pbuh are Jews only. No Christians aside from the followers of the Jewish Prophet, Jesus pbuh. Not Pauline Christians for sure.

    Abraham pbuh was not a Jew. The only ones to disobey God consistently through the ages have been the descendants of Jacob pbuh.


    And all his descendants.

    Ishmael pbuh means, God hears. God Himself said, He would take care of the boy, make Him fruitful and bless him with a Great Nation. You daft Christians just love to twist Scripture. A Nation is truly Great when it is guided by God. Gone are the Egyptian, Roman, Persian, British Empires. Islam has endured for over 1,400 years and continues to grow. It is the largest Monotheistic Religion on the Planet.


    Hagar ra was from Royal Egyptian bloodline, he married her and she bore him his first son. Incidentally the Samaritan Torah says, it was the first born that was to be sacrificed.


    Jesus pbuh denied coming from the Throne of David. His mother Mary ra was a Levite, and he had no direct male lineage to the Davidic line. Adopted fathers don't count.
     
  10. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    He presented Jesus pbuh to the Israelites, but tey were blinded by their hate, similarly people like you choose to follow in their footsteps.

    Facts are lost on you.


    The Anti Christ was from the early Christians, an outsider who was hated by James and Peter. A Benjamite wolf in sheep's clothing who abolished God's Laws in favour of non existent made up grace. Muhammad pbuh never came in the name of Christ, never denied Jesus pbuh as the Messiah, never denied God alone was worthy of worship.

    Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. << Not 3 like some non Abrahamic traditions.
     
  11. RESOLUTION

    RESOLUTION Active Member

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    1.What has being Avesome got to do with being the Children of God and therefore great?
    We were talking about the decendants of Isaac and Ishmael.
    Tell US who the known liars and tricksters were in Abraham and his sons?
    Now you see how your comment was unrelated and ignorant of what was actually being discussed.


    2.AND.... the verse is from the bible. Which had you read it, would have understood it.
    Why make comments which make you look ignorant?


    Your argument would be wrong.
    Actually, God tells the end from the beginning. The tribe of Judah came from the son of Jacob whose sons
    were the beginning of the twelve tribes of Israel. But more importantly...the land of Judah already given
    to Abraham and his descendants. Jacob was named Israel by God and his Sons became the twelve tribes of
    Israel. The people of God are not a place. Being a Jew is more about being born of the twelve tribes of
    Israel and part of Gods Covenants.So you can have Judaism without the Country.
    Because Israel was Jacob and his Sons were the twelve tribes of Israel the man and the descendants of
    Abraham and Isaac. The land was divided amongst the tribes when they entered the promise Land.

    Tribe of Reuben
    Tribe of Simeon
    Tribe of Levi
    Tribe of Judah
    Tribe of Issachar
    Tribe of Zebulun
    Tribe of Dan
    Tribe of Naphtali
    Tribe of Gad
    Tribe of Asher
    Tribe of Joseph
    Tribe of Benjamin

    As you can see Judah and Israel the people existed before the places by name. But the truth is that without
    Israel and his 12 Sons there would be no places. So the truth is we do have Judaism without the Country.




    King David, King Solomon, etc and Jesus Christ.
    I think you should study the bible and then you would not make such errors.

    Now everyone too embarrassed for you to laugh at you.


    6. Name the armies of God which can be defeated? Thought not, because like the rest of your errors
    in your post, you actually do not know what you are talking about and this has been proved constantly.
    The best thing that could happen to you, is that people of faith ignore your post. They have no relevance
    to the matters you are answering.

    The people of God have always been prersecuted because God always made them prosperous wherever they
    went. Just as he promised. People afraid because they did not know God. The wise person would have welcomed
    the People of God THEY become prosperous where they went.
     
  12. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Abraham.

    His sons.

    Have you READ the bible?

    But when were they called Jews instead of Israelites?

    The funny thing is, oftentimes place names and people names are exactly the same, like Hades and Mary Magdalene and Leonardo da Vinci. People weren't known by first name/last name in ancient times, but more often by place names.

    The more believable truth is that place names were given mythical ancestors to justify politics as existed when said stories were written.

    Jesus Christ was not a monarch. Try again.

    I'm sorry you only skimmed the bible.

    Let me help:

    Judges 1:19 The Lord was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron.

    God forbid God go up against people with modern guns and grenades! :)

    And enslaved. A LOT.
     
  13. RESOLUTION

    RESOLUTION Active Member

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    1.
    You think trying to wind me up excuses your ignorance on the bible and the matter at hand?
    You were the one accusing the of being liars and tricksters so why not tell us, as I asked
    who those known liars and tricksters you mention are.
    Truth is you know you have been caught out. Why not do the honourable thing and admit it?

    2.
    Which covenant are you referring to? Descendants of Abraham were known by the circumcision.
    The covenant with the Israelites was made in the wildneress and the twelve tribes of Israel (Jacob) the
    Father of the 12 sons whose descendants inherited the land from God.
    Why not tell us, how they became to be called Jews and why? Everyone knows the word Jew originated from
    the ancient Kingdom of Judah. So Israelites is collective for all the sons of Jacob the twelve tribes
    that were lead out from captivity by God through Moses.

    3 Actually history shows that people only had first names originally.
    Surnames were usually to do with their job.

    So a blacksmith would be called Black. Jesus the son of Jospeh the Carpenter. Luke the Physician.
    People referred to the place someone came from not as a surname but where they are from. But surnames
    originally came from jobs.

    I cannot be bothered reading the rest of your ridiculous post.

    It is a time waster and I am not into people who make things up such as 'mythical ancestors'.
    The Jews are here so Abraham existed...
     
  14. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe if not enough people are responding it goes to a second page and it becomes out of sight and out of mind but it was on my mind this morning.

    I believe He bides His time but it would be Him putting it on my mind this morning.

    I believe that depends on the form of Christianity. For a long time the Roman Catholic Church wouldn't even allow parishoners to read the Bible. My denomination does not mandate doctrine and encourages discussion.
     
  15. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe my reply was not in context with that comment.
     
  16. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    On this you get an "F." Abraham lied to kings saying his wife was his sister. Jacob lied to his father representing himself as Esau and he deceived Laban in order to get more sheep.
     
  17. RESOLUTION

    RESOLUTION Active Member

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    Thought you believed Jesus came from God?


    King James Bible
    And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.



    A wise man would have avoided doing such a thing given the consequences. So either you deceive yourself
    when you claim to follow what Christ taught or your actions show that your argument is not based on
    any real experience or belief from your faith which you profess.



     
  18. RESOLUTION

    RESOLUTION Active Member

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    Sara was his half sister he neglected to tell them she was also his wife.
    Jacob represented himself as Esau because Esau sold his birth right to Jacob and if you knew the bible you would know that at their birth it was said:


    Genesis 25:23

    “And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the onepeople shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.”


    Just as the older in the case of Ishmael served the younger brother. What is it you cannot fathom about the truth of the bible. You see everything is Gods plan but God himself is not a liar but man is.
    And you, have you never lied or done wrong to another? Or is it that you don't understand if you break one
    commandment you break them all?

    Christ never lied to anyone. God has never lied to anyone. So how come you cannot see the truth?

    Laban cheated Jacob by changing his wages 10 times and God told him to leave and go back to his own
    people and country. However, I see the bible tells us ALL THINGS belong to God.

    King James Bible
    A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

    So do you claim to know better than God? Is any man stealing what God gives him?
    If God took all the contents of the world tomorrow who would accuse him of stealing what he made?

    You see everything including Laban and all he owned belonged to God.

    KJ21
    “But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly in this manner? For all things come from Thee, and from Thine own have we given Thee.


    I note you know nothing about the sovereignty of God. You know nothing about the way the world worked
    then. Jacob was entitled to the blessing which Esau sold to him. His mother was aware this would happen before their birth. You see Gods plan always comes to pass. Hence Jacob became the key figure the person God names Israel and his Sons the twelve tribes of Israel.


    Telling us, it is always about Gods choice and whom he chooses. Your arguments neither affect or change
    that truth. They are what you call useless arguments in the face of the truth about God.
    What laws were about then? None... Moses had not come and no laws existed so none could be convicted of sin. There was Abraham and his covenant with God and his Son Isaac. But at that time no laws existed to convict a person of sin. Abraham was married to his half sister it is a fact.
     
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