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Is Christian Mysticism Evil?

Cooky

Veteran Member
THERE IS NO BIBLICAL BASIS FOR THE OCCULT PRACTICE OF MYSTICISM IN CHRISTIANITY

Some try to use JOSHUA 1:8 and PSALMS 119:78 to teach new age occult meditation is mysticism this is WRONG! Much of the occult teachings rebranded as "christian mysticism" in the Roman Catholic Church has more to do with "new age meditation" it also has much to do with trying to connect and contact the so called dead saints which is forbidden in the old testament scriptures. As to the the Hebrew word used in these scriptures is in relation to "meditate" on the law in relation to the laws importance to God's people. The Hebrew word used does not have the same meaning has new age mystic meditation that we have today. The Hebrew word used here is H1897 הגה; hâgâh it means to ponder, to study and understand the laws meaning and to speak about it. We are to do this with all of the scriptures as it is written "Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" *2 TIMOTHY 2:15. This is what you are not doing trying to justify the occult teachings of mysticism.

All the Roman Catholic Church has done in new age mystic meditation of the law of God is sought to change Gods law in fulfillment of Daniel 7:25 [25], And he (the Roman Catholic Church) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

This is evidenced in the change of God's 2nd commandment in EXODUS 20:4-5 in relation to "IDOL worship" [4], You shall not make to you any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. [5], You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

.............

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (not the people) IS INDEED MYSTERY BABYLON OF REVELATION 17

THE MYSTERY RELIGION OF BABYLON IS IDOL AND SUN WORSHIP....

[GALLERY=media, 9268]Catholic Idol Worship 3 by 3rdAngel posted Feb 24, 2020 at 10:46 AM[/GALLERY]
[GALLERY=media, 9267]Catholic Idol Worship 2 by 3rdAngel posted Feb 24, 2020 at 10:46 AM[/GALLERY]
[GALLERY=media, 9266]Catholic Idol Worship by 3rdAngel posted Feb 24, 2020 at 10:45 AM[/GALLERY]

and also in regards to changing the church's position in relation to God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath.

[GALLERY=media, 9263]Sabbath To Sun Whorship Sunday by 3rdAngel posted Feb 18, 2020 at 9:46 PM[/GALLERY]


I believe that today the Roman Catholic Church's teachings (not the people) is simply the ancient Babylonian teachings of Sun worship under the guise of Christianity

[GALLERY=media, 9255]Halo From The Sun God and paganism by 3rdAngel posted Feb 18, 2020 at 6:32 PM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 9262]Halo Mary by 3rdAngel posted Feb 18, 2020 at 9:10 PM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 9260]Jesus Sun Halo by 3rdAngel posted Feb 18, 2020 at 7:01 PM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 9250]Sun worship in Catholic church by 3rdAngel posted Feb 18, 2020 at 1:17 PM[/GALLERY]
[GALLERY=media, 9254]Sun Goddess IHS Origin Egypt ISIS HEROB And SEB by 3rdAngel posted Feb 18, 2020 at 2:14 PM[/GALLERY]
[GALLERY=media, 9252]Pagen Sun Worship In The Roman Catholic Church by 3rdAngel posted Feb 18, 2020 at 1:23 PM[/GALLERY]
[GALLERY=media, 9250]Sun worship in Catholic church by 3rdAngel posted Feb 18, 2020 at 1:17 PM[/GALLERY]

This is no place for your terrorism. I can think of no better word for what you're doing -trying to instill fear and terror into Catholics.

...it's not only disrespectful and against multiple rules (off topic, slander, spam, needlessly offensive, proselytizing, preaching ) but it's contrary to the forum mission. And you do it consistently, regardless of anything.

Worst of all, is that it's been explained to you over and over, and over, ad nauseam, that Christian mysticism has nothing to do with New Age or magic, yet you consistently claim it does with no evidence aside from you 'saying so'. Which is intellectually dishonest.

If you only had an argument backed by at least any kind of logic, or actual evidence, your posts might be worth half a ****... But you don't have that. :facepalm:
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Why would you think they are important? They are not biblical o_O
Circular reasoning here. The question was, “Do you think something important is missing [from the canon]?” There are important works that aren’t in the canon. The canon, itself, doesn’t determine what’s important enough to be in the canon. “Biblical” is a very arbitrary term and is not a term that describes any criteria for canonization. None of the NT books were “biblical” before they were canonized.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
This is no place for your terrorism. I can think of no better word for what you're doing -trying to instill fear and terror into Catholics.

...it's not only disrespectful and against multiple rules (off topic, slander, spam, needlessly offensive, proselytizing, preaching ) but it's contrary to the forum mission. And you do it consistently, regardless of anything.

Worst of all, is that it's been explained to you over and over, and over, ad nauseam, that Christian mysticism has nothing to do with New Age or magic, yet you consistently claim it does with no evidence aside from you 'saying so'. Which is intellectually dishonest.

If you only had an argument backed by at least any kind of logic, or actual evidence, your posts might be worth half a ****... But you don't have that. :facepalm:
Took the words right out my mouth.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Some try to use JOSHUA 1:8 and PSALMS 119:78 to teach new age occult meditation is mysticism this is WRONG
We’re patently not saying that these passages teach occult. But they do teach Christian mysticism, for the two are not the same thing.

Much of the occult teachings rebranded as "christian mysticism" in the Roman Catholic Church has more to do with "new age meditation" it also has much to do with trying to connect and contact the so called dead saints which is forbidden in the old testament scriptures
There’s been no rebranding except for the misinformation you’re hawking rebranded as “fact.”

As to the the Hebrew word used in these scriptures is in relation to "meditate" on the law in relation to the laws importance to God's people. The Hebrew word used does not have the same meaning has new age mystic meditation that we have today
That’s because Christian mysticism has nothing to do with new age or Eastern meditation.
it also has much to do with trying to connect and contact the so called dead saints which is forbidden in the old testament scriptures.
Lies.

All the Roman Catholic Church has done in new age mystic meditation of the law of God is sought to change Gods law in fulfillment of Daniel 7:25 [25], And he (the Roman Catholic Church) shall speak great words against the most High
Nope. There was no Catholic Church in the time Daniel was written. Your “interpretation” is baseless.

This is evidenced in the change of God's 2nd commandment in EXODUS 20:4-5 in relation to "IDOL worship" [4], You shall not make to you any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. [5], You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me
This has nothing to do with Christian mysticism.
I believe that today the Roman Catholic Church's teachings (not the people) is simply the ancient Babylonian teachings of Sun worship under the guise of Christianity
The church IS the people.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
This is no place for your terrorism. I can think of no better word for what you're doing -trying to instill fear and terror into Catholics.

...it's not only disrespectful and against multiple rules (off topic, slander, spam, needlessly offensive, proselytizing, preaching ) but it's contrary to the forum mission. And you do it consistently, regardless of anything.

Worst of all, is that it's been explained to you over and over, and over, ad nauseam, that Christian mysticism has nothing to do with New Age or magic, yet you consistently claim it does with no evidence aside from you 'saying so'. Which is intellectually dishonest.

If you only had an argument backed by at least any kind of logic, or actual evidence, your posts might be worth half a ****... But you don't have that. :facepalm:

My friend telling the truth is not terrorism. It is simply telling the truth. It is only terrorism if you close your eyes to the truth. You have not explained anything whatsoever. I believe all you have done is simply denied all the facts that have been pesented here and shared with you. You saying so does not make it so because you say so. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear. I believe the only one being dishonest here is you and your Catholic friends pretending occult mysticism is Christian when it is no such thing.
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
"CHRISTIAN" MYSTICISM [SHAMANISM] ? LET'S BE HONEST NOW.

Please read the linked sources and scriptures provided showing why this practice is an abomination in God's eyes...

As shown in the post those trying to use JOSHUA 1:8 and PSALMS 119:78 to teach new age occult meditation and mysticism is WRONG in my opinion! I believe the passages teach no such thing. The reason is that the Hebrew word used does not have the same meaning as new age mystic meditation that we have today. The Hebrew word used here is H1897 הגה; hâgâh it means to ponder, to study and understand the laws meaning and to speak about it. We are to do this with all of the scriptures as it is written "Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" *2 TIMOTHY 2:15.

I believe this is what many are not doing by trying to justify the occult teachings of mysticism that have their origin in witchcraft and occult teachings.

All the Roman Catholic Church has done in new age mystic meditation applied to the above scriptures in relation to God's law is to change Gods law in fulfillment of Daniel 7:25 [25], And he (the Roman Catholic Church) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

I believe this is evidenced in the change of God's 2nd commandment in EXODUS 20:4-5 in relation to "IDOL worship" [4], You shall not make to you any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. [5], You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

As shown elsewhere christian mysticism is not biblical. Mysticism has it's origin in occult teachings such as those used in the WITCHCRAFT of SHAMANISM linked and many other religions that pre-date Christianity. Putting the name "christian" in front of the word "occult" does not make the "occult" christian anymore than calling a pig a horse.

SHAMANISM has it's orign in WITCHCRAFT and the "occult" as shown in the linked sections of this post.

A shaman (/ˈʃɑːmən/ SHAH-men) is someone who is regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters into a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination (Wikipedia).

It is defined as a practice that involves a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to perceive and interact with what they believe to be a spirit world and channel these transcendental energies into this world (Wikipedia). They seek to achieve this with many techniques that include going into trances through meditation. SHAMANISM is practiced in many religions around the world (Wikipedia).

Now I believe anyone putting the word "christian" in front of the word "sharman" and applying what a "Sharman" practices in meditation that leads to a trance to contact familiar Spirits while praying to the dead - MARY and the SAINTS does not make it any less witchcraft than Saul seeking out the familiar spirits from the Witch of Endore.

This is simply the occult practice of witchcraft. You may as well call it "christian witchcraft". Now you claiming that you use it to contact the dead spirits of the saints or to pray to Mary and the Saints is only doing exactly what the bible forbids.

What does the Bible say about "divination" and consulting familiar Spirits and the dead (Sharmanism)?

DEUTERONOMY 18:10-12 [10], There shall not be found among you any one that makes his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that uses divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. [11], Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. [12], For all that do these things are an abomination to the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD your God does drive them out from before you.

The MOSAIC law commanded God's people not to contect those with familiar spirits of necromancers and these people were to be put to death...Commandments of God from the Mosaic law.

LEVITICUS 19:31: Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them; I am the Lord your God.

The Hebew word used here for defiled is טמא; ṭâmê' (H2930) A primitive root; to be foul, especially in a ceremonial or moral sense (contaminated): - defile (self), pollute (self), be (make, make self, pronounce) unclean, X utterly.

LEVITICUS 20:27: A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones; their blood shall be upon them

I believe that in DEUTERONOMY 18:11-12 the Hebrew words for necromancer have application to prayers to the dead which can includes Mary and the saints because praying to the dead is seeking to have contact with the dead because it is the dead you are praying to and asking or inquiring which is the meaning of the Hebrew words.

Another words trying to contact the dead through prayer could be viewed as performing the duty of a necromancer because by praying to the dead your trying to communicate to the dead.
Looking at the Hebrew word meanings what is the difference between someone praying and trying to communicate to the dead and a necromancer when that is the role of a necromancer?
The scriptures are saying if someone is dead then we are not to try and communicate to them.
Praying to the dead goes against the scriptures in God's WORD. As shown above it is an abomination to God and also goes against these scriptures below from the NEW Testament...

JOHN 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1 TIMOTHY 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

1 TIMOTHY 2:5-6
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

MATTHEW 6:9-13 Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

ACTS 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

ECCLESIASTIES 9:5-6 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

On top of these scriptures brother did you know that praying to the dead has its origin from the pagan cultures of the world? Finally where in God's WORD are we told to pray to the dead (Mary and the saints)? This is an abomination in God's Word directly forbidden in the scriptures. Yet this is the very teachings of the Roman Catholic Church (not the people) who is described in REVELATION 17 and 18 as the Great Mother Whore of BANYLON who God is calling all his people out from *REVELATION 18:1-5.

I believe there is no such thing as "Christian Mysticism" it has it's origin in the occult teachings of witchcraft, not christianity and is forbidden in the scriptures..

[GALLERY=media, 9269]Christian Sharmanism by 3rdAngel posted Feb 24, 2020 at 2:47 PM[/GALLERY]

Hope this helps :)
 
Last edited:

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
"CHRISTIAN" MYSTICISM [SHAMANISM] ? LET'S BE HONEST.

Please read the linked sources and scriptures provided showing why this practice is an abomination in God's eyes...

As shown in the post those trying to use JOSHUA 1:8 and PSALMS 119:78 to teach new age occult meditation and mysticism is WRONG in my opinion! I believe the passages teach no such thing. The reason is that the Hebrew word used does not have the same meaning as new age mystic meditation that we have today. The Hebrew word used here is H1897 הגה; hâgâh it means to ponder, to study and understand the laws meaning and to speak about it. We are to do this with all of the scriptures as it is written "Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" *2 TIMOTHY 2:15.

I believe this is what many are not doing by trying to justify the occult teachings of mysticism that have their origin in witchcraft and occult teachings.

All the Roman Catholic Church has done in new age mystic meditation applied to the above scriptures in relation to God's law is to change Gods law in fulfillment of Daniel 7:25 [25], And he (the Roman Catholic Church) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

I believe this is evidenced in the change of God's 2nd commandment in EXODUS 20:4-5 in relation to "IDOL worship" [4], You shall not make to you any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. [5], You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

As shown elsewhere christian mysticism is not biblical. Mysticism has it's origin in occult teachings such as those used in the WITCHCRAFT of SHAMANISM linked and many other religions that pre-date Christianity. Putting the name "christian" in front of the word "occult" does not make the "occult" christian anymore than calling a pig a horse.

SHAMANISM has it's orign in WITCHCRAFT and the "occult" as shown in the linked sections of this post.

A shaman (/ˈʃɑːmən/ SHAH-men) is someone who is regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters into a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination (Wikipedia).

It is defined as a practice that involves a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to perceive and interact with what they believe to be a spirit world and channel these transcendental energies into this world (Wikipedia). They seek to achieve this with many techniques that include going into trances through meditation. SHAMANISM is practiced in many religions around the world (Wikipedia).

Now I believe anyone putting the word "christian" in front of the word "sharman" and applying what a "Sharman" practices in meditation that leads to a trance to contact familiar Spirits while praying to the dead - MARY and the SAINTS does not make it any less witchcraft than Saul seeking out the familiar spirits from the Witch of Endore.

This is simply the occult practice of witchcraft. You may as well call it "christian witchcraft". Now you claiming that you use it to contact the dead spirits of the saints or to pray to Mary and the Saints is only doing exactly what the bible forbids.

What does the Bible say about "divination" and consulting familiar Spirits and the dead (Sharmanism)?

DEUTERONOMY 18:10-12 [10], There shall not be found among you any one that makes his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that uses divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. [11], Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. [12], For all that do these things are an abomination to the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD your God does drive them out from before you.

The MOSAIC law commanded God's people not to contect those with familiar spirits of necromancers and these people were to be put to death...

Commandments of God from the Mosaic law.

LEVITICUS 19:31: Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them; I am the Lord your God.

The Hebew word used here for defiled is טמא; ṭâmê' (H2930) A primitive root; to be foul, especially in a ceremonial or moral sense (contaminated): - defile (self), pollute (self), be (make, make self, pronounce) unclean, X utterly.

LEVITICUS 20:27: A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones; their blood shall be upon them

I believe that in DEUTERONOMY 18:11-12 the Hebrew words for necromancer have application to prayers to the dead which can includes Mary and the saints because praying to the dead is seeking to have contact with the dead because it is the dead you are praying to and asking or inquiring which is the meaning of the Hebrew words.

Another words trying to contact the dead through prayer could be viewed as performing the duty of a necromancer because by praying to the dead your trying to communicate to the dead.

Looking at the Hebrew word meanings what is the difference between someone praying and trying to communicate to the dead and a necromancer when that is the role of a necromancer?

The scriptures are saying if someone is dead then we are not to try and communicate to them.

Praying to the dead goes against the scriptures in God's WORD. As shown above it is an abomination to God and also goes against these scriptures below from the NEW Testament...

JOHN 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1 TIMOTHY 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

1 TIMOTHY 2:5-6
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

MATTHEW 6:9-13 Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

ACTS 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

ECCLESIASTIES 9:5-6 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

On top of these scriptures brother did you know that praying to the dead has its origin from the pagan cultures of the world?

Finally where in God's WORD are we told to pray to the dead (Mary and the saints)? This is an abomination in God's Word directly forbidden in the scriptures. Yet this is the very teachings of the Roman Catholic Church (not the people) who is described in REVELATION 17 and 18 as the Great Mother Whore of BANYLON who God is calling all his people out from *REVELATION 18:1-5.

I believe there is no such thing as "Christian Mysticism" it has it's origin in the occult teachings of witchcraft, not christianity and is forbidden in the scriptures..

[GALLERY=media, 9269]Christian Sharmanism by 3rdAngel posted Feb 24, 2020 at 2:47 PM[/GALLERY]

Hope this helps :)
Have you thought of that the mystic has been removed from the Bible because the man in "power" politically feared the very much cultivated practitioner who understood the teachings and could see what the man in "power" really wanted? All the 12 disciple and Jesus had access to abilities that normal people do not, because normal people do not cultivate their mind and body?

How do you think Jesus could make water into Wine, or other "Magic" things he did? That was because of his cultivation of his mind and body. It is not fantasy, it is a part of cultivation practice
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Have you thought of that the mystic has been removed from the Bible because the man in "power" politically feared the very much cultivated practitioner who understood the teachings and could see what the man in "power" really wanted? All the 12 disciple and Jesus had access to abilities that normal people do not, because normal people do not cultivate their mind and body?

How do you think Jesus could make water into Wine, or other "Magic" things he did? That was because of his cultivation of his mind and body. It is not fantasy, it is a part of cultivation practice

Respectfully, I believe your post only shows you did not read the post you are responding to. For me, I believe there is no such thing as "christian" mysticism in "christian teachings" and the scriptures. It is a directly forbidden practice commanded by God according to DEUTERONOMY 18:10-12; LEVITICUS 19:31; LEVITICUS 20:27. Christians believe JESUS is God and we are to follow God through His Word. According to the scriptures Jesus and all the 12 and more did miracles through faith in God's Word not through seeking to do magic by contacting familiar spirits through mysticism and witchcraft. Sorry we will have to agree to disagree. Of course if we follow different paths we will disagree. I only wish you and everyone else here only the best.
 
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Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Your post only shows you did not read the post you are responding to. There is no such thing as "christian" mysticism in "christian teachings" and the scriptures. It is a directly forbidden practice commanded by God according to DEUTERONOMY 18:10-12; LEVITICUS 19:31; LEVITICUS 20:27. Christians believe JESUS is God and follow his Word. According to the scriptures Jesus and all the 12 and more did miracles through faith in God's Word not through seeking to do magic by contacting familiar spirits through mysticism and witchcraft. Sorry we will have to agree to disagree.
I knew you would disagree, that is no problem for me.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
"Mysticism, (from Greek: muein, to initiate), according to its etymology, implies a relation to mystery. In philosophy, Mysticism is either a religious tendency and desire of the human soul towards an intimate union with the Divinity, or a system growing out of such a tendency and desire. As a philosophical system, Mysticism considers as the end of philosophy the direct union of the human soul with the Divinity through contemplation and love, and attempts to determine the processes and the means of realizing this end."

Mysticism
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
THERE IS NO BIBLICAL BASIS FOR THE OCCULT PRACTICE OF MYSTICISM IN CHRISTIANITY

I believe some try to use JOSHUA 1:8 and PSALMS 119:78 to teach new age occult meditation is mysticism this is WRONG! Much of the occult teachings rebranded as "christian mysticism" in the Roman Catholic Church has more to do with "new age meditation" it also has much to do with trying to connect and contact the so called dead saints which is forbidden in the old testament scriptures. As to the the Hebrew word used in these scriptures is in relation to "meditate" on the law in relation to the laws importance to God's people. The Hebrew word used does not have the same meaning has new age mystic meditation that we have today. The Hebrew word used here is H1897 הגה; hâgâh it means to ponder, to study and understand the laws meaning and to speak about it. We are to do this with all of the scriptures as it is written "Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" *2 TIMOTHY 2:15. This is what you are not doing trying to justify the occult teachings of mysticism.

I believe all the Roman Catholic Church has done in new age mystic meditation of the law of God is sought to change Gods law in fulfillment of Daniel 7:25 [25], And he (the Roman Catholic Church) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

This is evidenced in the change of God's 2nd commandment in EXODUS 20:4-5 in relation to "IDOL worship" [4], You shall not make to you any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. [5], You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

.............

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (not the people) IS INDEED MYSTERY BABYLON OF REVELATION 17

THE MYSTERY RELIGION OF BABYLON IS IDOL AND SUN WORSHIP....

[GALLERY=media, 9268]Catholic Idol Worship 3 by 3rdAngel posted Feb 24, 2020 at 10:46 AM[/GALLERY]
[GALLERY=media, 9267]Catholic Idol Worship 2 by 3rdAngel posted Feb 24, 2020 at 10:46 AM[/GALLERY]
[GALLERY=media, 9266]Catholic Idol Worship by 3rdAngel posted Feb 24, 2020 at 10:45 AM[/GALLERY]

and also in regards to changing the church's position in relation to God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath.

[GALLERY=media, 9263]Sabbath To Sun Whorship Sunday by 3rdAngel posted Feb 18, 2020 at 9:46 PM[/GALLERY]


I believe that today the Roman Catholic Church's teachings (not the people) is simply the ancient Babylonian teachings of Sun worship under the guise of Christianity

[GALLERY=media, 9255]Halo From The Sun God and paganism by 3rdAngel posted Feb 18, 2020 at 6:32 PM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 9262]Halo Mary by 3rdAngel posted Feb 18, 2020 at 9:10 PM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 9260]Jesus Sun Halo by 3rdAngel posted Feb 18, 2020 at 7:01 PM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 9250]Sun worship in Catholic church by 3rdAngel posted Feb 18, 2020 at 1:17 PM[/GALLERY]
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I proved to you there is mysticism in the Bible. It's not just in the Bible - it's the very source of it. But you stick to your own misconception and say this is not mysticism. :seenoevil:

And you still append things to Christian mysticism that don't belong there or things that are irrelevant although I provided you a list of main elements of Christian mysticism. If you have forgotten them let me refresh your memory:

In early Christianity the term "mystikos" referred to three dimensions, which soon became intertwined, namely the biblical, the liturgical and the spiritual or contemplative.[1] The biblical dimension refers to "hidden" or allegorical interpretations of Scriptures.[web 2][1] The liturgical dimension refers to the liturgical mystery of the Eucharist, the presence of Christ at the Eucharist.[web 2][1] The third dimension is the contemplative or experiential knowledge of God.[1] (Wiki)

And BTW: mysticism is not just in Catholic Church. It was already in Christianity before the "great schism" and also in Jewish religion.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
I proved to you there is mysticism in the Bible. It's not just in the Bible - it's the very source of it. But you stick to your own misconception and say this is not mysticism. :seenoevil:

I am sorry my friend I do not believe you proved anything. Please show me a scripture supporting mysticism in the bible. There is none. Your claim here only shows you did not read the post you are quoting from. Mysticism is condemned in the bible in DEUTERONOMY 18:10-12; LEVITICUS 19:31; LEVITICUS 20:27.

And you still append things to Christian mysticism that don't belong there or things that are irrelevant although I provided you a list of main elements of Christian mysticism.

I have not appended anything to mysticism. It is you and your friends that are appending the word "christian" to mysticism which has it's origin pre-dating christianity from witchcraft and the occult as shown in the post you are quoting from in the linked sources which is condemned in the scriptures of the old testament.

If you have forgotten them let me refresh your memory:
In early Christianity the term "mystikos" referred to three dimensions, which soon became intertwined, namely the biblical, the liturgical and the spiritual or contemplative.[1] The biblical dimension refers to "hidden" or allegorical interpretations of Scriptures.[web 2][1] The liturgical dimension refers to the liturgical mystery of the Eucharist, the presence of Christ at the Eucharist.[web 2][1] The third dimension is the contemplative or experiential knowledge of God.[1] (Wiki)

I am sorry but a Catholic quote from wiki does not justify the occult within christianity as it is not biblical and the scriptures simply condemn this practice which God calls an abomination.

And BTW: mysticism is not just in Catholic Church. It was already in Christianity before the "great schism" and also in Jewish religion.

I am sure it has spread in many places. Just because people practice it does not make it right. Mysticism is not a biblical practice for christians. We do not need to seek God through the occult to find God or through familiar Spirits which the scriptures condemn. I believe we ought to follow God's Word rather than the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
"Mysticism, (from Greek: muein, to initiate), according to its etymology, implies a relation to mystery. In philosophy, Mysticism is either a religious tendency and desire of the human soul towards an intimate union with the Divinity, or a system growing out of such a tendency and desire. As a philosophical system, Mysticism considers as the end of philosophy the direct union of the human soul with the Divinity through contemplation and love, and attempts to determine the processes and the means of realizing this end."

Mysticism

"Mysticism is the practice of religious ecstasies, together with whatever ideologies, ethics, rites, myths, legends, and magic may be related to them. It may also refer to the attainment of insight in ultimate or hidden truths, and to human transformation supported by various practices and experiences". (Wikipedia)

..........

"
Mysticism
, the practice of religious ecstasies (religious experiences during alternate states of consciousness), together with whatever ideologies, ethics, rites, myths, legends, and magic may be related to them". (Encyclopedia Britanica)

.........

Mysticism
is a religion or religious belief based on union or communion with a deity, or divine being.
(Vocabulary.com)

.............

Mysticism
mys·ti·cism; Mysticism is a spiritual belief stating that
a connection can be obtained with God or the spirits through thought and meditation. (Your Dictionary)

.............

As posted earlier it has its origins from the occult and is not biblical. The difference between the occult and mysticism is that the occult knows what it is doing and retains knowledge and consciensness and mysticism does not. Let look at the facts when comparing the occult with mysticism from the occult writings of MAX HEINDEL.

"Etymology can shed light on the two terms (occult and mysticism) of our study. Both refer to that which is hidden. Occult comes from Latin occultus, concealed, and the verb occulere, to cover over. Mystic comes from the Greek myein, to shut the eyes. In the ancient mysteries the candidate’s eyes were actually opened (either after long sensory deprivation to effect heightened impact of the mystical scene, or, more esoterically, the spiritual vision was opened). In common usage, occultism reveals the hidden while mysticism only refers to the hidden.

Heindel retains this sense: Occultism is a rational presentation, a public showing of invisible or meta-physical truths. It identifies the causes for physical phenomena existing in the world of thought and, importantly, the path by which the invisible worlds can be consciously accessed and known. Mysticism describes the path of uniting with the first Cause of creation through faith, devotion, and love. Mysticism does not seek knowledge per se, it seeks God. It would surpass “mere” knowledge, however lofty. It wants total immersion in Divinity.

Mysticism, though having its origin in the revelation of higher knowledge in pre-Christian Mysteries (Greek, mysterion) of Asia Minor, Egypt, and Ancient Greece, during the Christian era it increasingly referred to a state of heightened subjectivity by which the religious seeker attained an ecstatic and ineffable union with the divine Presence. The content of this experience thus virtually defies transmission.

In occult experiences, on the other hand, the seer retains his ego-awareness when experiencing realities of the higher worlds and is able to give them a form that human reason can comprehend, without having to experience them first-hand. Therefore direct experience in the higher worlds is prepared for by studying the occult knowledge derived from those worlds. Mystic knowledge cannot be taught in this manner; in fact, the term is somewhat of a contradiction, if we understand knowledge precisely as that which can be taught or verbally communicated.

The word occult or its derivatives (occultist, occultism) occurs 145 times in the Cosmo, mystic appears nine times. Clearly Heindel was presenting occult, not mystic, truths, as the first and second editions of the book make clear, for its full title was Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception or Christian Occult Science. In the third edition, Heindel changed the title to Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception or Mystic Christianity. That the Cosmo is a presentation of occult, not mystic, Christian truths, is confirmed by both the book’s contents and by many statements made in Heindel’s other works, as this study will show.

The Cosmo’s purpose is to shed occult light on “the World-Mystery” (248) so that, as the concluding sentence to the first two editions explain, “faith can be swallowed up in knowledge dedicated to the service of Humanity.” The mystic “feels rather than knows” (478). But the “main efforts” of the Rosicrucians “are expended in reaching the intellectually minded, for their need is greater” than the mystics’, who travel the heart path
" (Mystic and Occult in Max Hendels Writings)

.............

What does this mean exactly? It simply means all mysticism is the practice and experience of the occult without a knowledge of what you are doing! This is not biblical and does not have it's origin in the scriptures or the teachings of JESUS and the bible!


.............

As shown elsewhere christian mysticism is not biblical. Mysticism has it's origin in occult teachings such as those used in the WITCHCRAFT of SHAMANISM linked and many other religions that pre-date Christianity. Putting the name "christian" in front of the word "occult" does not make the "occult" christian anymore than calling a pig a horse.

SHAMANISM which is one of the oldest forms of mysticism has it's origns in WITCHCRAFT and the "occult" and uses familiar spirits, spirit guides and seeks to talk with the spirit world as shown in the linked sections of this post.

A shaman (/ˈʃɑːmən/ SHAH-men) is someone who is regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters into a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination (Wikipedia).

It is defined as a practice that involves a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to perceive and interact with what they believe to be a spirit world and channel these transcendental energies into this world (Wikipedia). They seek to achieve this with many techniques that include going into trances through meditation. SHAMANISM is practiced in many religions around the world (Wikipedia).

Now I believe anyone putting the word "christian" in front of the word "sharman" and applying what a "Sharman" practices in meditation that leads to a trance to contact familiar Spirits while praying to the dead - MARY and the SAINTS does not make it any less witchcraft than Saul seeking out the familiar spirits from the Witch of Endore.

This is simply the occult practice of witchcraft. You may as well call it "christian witchcraft". Now you claiming that you use it to contact the dead spirits of the saints or to pray to Mary and the Saints is only doing exactly what the bible forbids.

...............

What does the Bible say about "divination" and consulting familiar Spirits and the dead (Sharmanism)?

DEUTERONOMY 18:10-12 [10], There shall not be found among you any one that makes his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that uses divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. [11], Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. [12], For all that do these things are an abomination to the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD your God does drive them out from before you.

LEVITICUS 19:31: Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them; I am the Lord your God.

LEVITICUS 20:27: A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones; their blood shall be upon them

Hope this helps
 
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sealchan

Well-Known Member
I’ve read the Christian mystics — everything from the desert fathers and mothers to Tom Cowan and J. Philip Newell. I don’t find anything remotely dangerous, or “satanic” — nor even anything remotely occult about them or their practices. Everything medical we know about the practice of meditation shows its health benefits.

In my considered opinion, which comes from many years of education, research, and practice, Christian mysticism offers us opportunity to immerse ourselves deeply and holistically in our spiritual walk. We engage the whole human experience — not just intellect and emotion, but most especially intuition and creativity. We plumb the depths of our soul. We move from the limits of our physical senses into the broader awareness of our spiritual dimension. Mysticism offers us the space to converse with the Divine in “sighs that are too deep for words.” It offers us vision that goes beyond what our physical eyes see.

This is who we are as spiritual beings. IMO, mysticism aids in discovering who — and whose — we are.

For me Zen meditation helped me to break my addiction to pure logical construct...so much of our experience of the world and of the spiritual involves confronting paradox and logical contradiction. It is not religion which creates these paradoxes, only clothes them in particular stories and ideas so that we can attempt first to become aware of them and second to incorporate them into our lives.

If you read the latest written portions of the Jewish Testament you will find that it is fully of a literary sense of the immense conflict and paradox of life and that thinking one can control one's destiny is a futile effort. What then can we hold onto but a God who would treat Job as He did?

Rules are important guides but true spiritual understanding comes from personal experience where it provides context (transcends) those rules and one can, in effect, suffer gladly in the grace of the Holy Spirit.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Mysticism is a religion or religious belief based on union or communion with a deity, or divine being. (Vocabulary.com)

.............

Mysticism
mys·ti·cism; Mysticism is a spiritual belief stating that
a connection can be obtained with God or the spirits through thought and meditation. (Your Dictionary)

.............

"Mysticism is the practice of religious ecstasies, together with whatever ideologies, ethics, rites, myths, legends, and magic may be related to them. It may also refer to the attainment of insight in ultimate or hidden truths, and to human transformation supported by various practices and experiences
". (Wikipedia)

..........

"
Mysticism, the practice of religious ecstasies (religious experiences during alternate states of consciousness), together with whatever ideologies, ethics, rites, myths, legends, and magic may be related to them". (Encyclopedia Britanica)

.........

As posted earlier it has its origins from the occult and is not biblical. The difference is that the occult knows what it is doing and retains knowledge and consciensness and mysticism does not. Let look at the facts when comparing the occult with mysticism from the occult writings of MAX HEINDEL.

"Etymology can shed light on the two terms (occult and mysticism) of our study. Both refer to that which is hidden. Occult comes from Latin occultus, concealed, and the verb occulere, to cover over. Mystic comes from the Greek myein, to shut the eyes. In the ancient mysteries the candidate’s eyes were actually opened (either after long sensory deprivation to effect heightened impact of the mystical scene, or, more esoterically, the spiritual vision was opened). In common usage, occultism reveals the hidden while mysticism only refers to the hidden.

Heindel retains this sense: Occultism is a rational presentation, a public showing of invisible or meta-physical truths. It identifies the causes for physical phenomena existing in the world of thought and, importantly, the path by which the invisible worlds can be consciously accessed and known. Mysticism describes the path of uniting with the first Cause of creation through faith, devotion, and love. Mysticism does not seek knowledge per se, it seeks God. It would surpass “mere” knowledge, however lofty. It wants total immersion in Divinity.

Mysticism, though having its origin in the revelation of higher knowledge in pre-Christian Mysteries (Greek, mysterion) of Asia Minor, Egypt, and Ancient Greece, during the Christian era it increasingly referred to a state of heightened subjectivity by which the religious seeker attained an ecstatic and ineffable union with the divine Presence. The content of this experience thus virtually defies transmission.

In occult experiences, on the other hand, the seer retains his ego-awareness when experiencing realities of the higher worlds and is able to give them a form that human reason can comprehend, without having to experience them first-hand. Therefore direct experience in the higher worlds is prepared for by studying the occult knowledge derived from those worlds. Mystic knowledge cannot be taught in this manner; in fact, the term is somewhat of a contradiction, if we understand knowledge precisely as that which can be taught or verbally communicated.

The word occult or its derivatives (occultist, occultism) occurs 145 times in the Cosmo, mystic appears nine times. Clearly Heindel was presenting occult, not mystic, truths, as the first and second editions of the book make clear, for its full title was Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception or Christian Occult Science. In the third edition, Heindel changed the title to Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception or Mystic Christianity. That the Cosmo is a presentation of occult, not mystic, Christian truths, is confirmed by both the book’s contents and by many statements made in Heindel’s other works, as this study will show.

The Cosmo’s purpose is to shed occult light on “the World-Mystery” (248) so that, as the concluding sentence to the first two editions explain, “faith can be swallowed up in knowledge dedicated to the service of Humanity.” The mystic “feels rather than knows” (478). But the “main efforts” of the Rosicrucians “are expended in reaching the intellectually minded, for their need is greater” than the mystics’, who travel the heart path
" (Mystic and Occult in Max Hendels Writings)

.............

What does this mean exactly? It simply means all mysticism is the practice and experience of the occult without a knowledge of what you are doing! This is not biblical and does not have it's origin in the scriptures or the teachings of JESUS and the bible!

.............

As shown elsewhere christian mysticism is not biblical. Mysticism has it's origin in occult teachings such as those used in the WITCHCRAFT of SHAMANISM linked and many other religions that pre-date Christianity. Putting the name "christian" in front of the word "occult" does not make the "occult" christian anymore than calling a pig a horse.

SHAMANISM which is one of the oldest forms of mysticism has it's origns in WITCHCRAFT and the "occult" and uses familiar spirits, spirit guides and seeks to talk with the spirit world as shown in the linked sections of this post.

A shaman (/ˈʃɑːmən/ SHAH-men) is someone who is regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters into a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination (Wikipedia).

It is defined as a practice that involves a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to perceive and interact with what they believe to be a spirit world and channel these transcendental energies into this world (Wikipedia). They seek to achieve this with many techniques that include going into trances through meditation. SHAMANISM is practiced in many religions around the world (Wikipedia).

Now I believe anyone putting the word "christian" in front of the word "sharman" and applying what a "Sharman" practices in meditation that leads to a trance to contact familiar Spirits while praying to the dead - MARY and the SAINTS does not make it any less witchcraft than Saul seeking out the familiar spirits from the Witch of Endore.

This is simply the occult practice of witchcraft. You may as well call it "christian witchcraft". Now you claiming that you use it to contact the dead spirits of the saints or to pray to Mary and the Saints is only doing exactly what the bible forbids.

...............

What does the Bible say about "divination" and consulting familiar Spirits and the dead (Sharmanism)?

DEUTERONOMY 18:10-12 [10], There shall not be found among you any one that makes his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that uses divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. [11], Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. [12], For all that do these things are an abomination to the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD your God does drive them out from before you.

LEVITICUS 19:31: Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them; I am the Lord your God.

LEVITICUS 20:27: A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones; their blood shall be upon them

Hope this helps

What about dreams?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Let's begin with a legitimate and honest definition for Christian mysticism. From the Westminster Dictionary of Theological terms (1996, Westminster John Knox Press; Donald K. McKim): The experience of union with God by the bond of love that is beyond human power to attain and that brings a sense of direct knowledge of and fellowship with God centered in Jesus Christ.

The dictionary of Theological Terms is used as a reference book in theology classes taught at accreditied, graduate seminaries. Donald McKim is author of several books, including: Theological Turning Points: Major Issues in Christian Thought, Presbyterian Beliefs: A Brief Introduction, and The Westminster handbook to Reformed Theology. In other words, McKim is a Protestant, Reformed theologian and scholar.

So, let's take a look at some examples of Christian mysticism and see if they meet the criteria of the definition, or if they are, indeed, "of the occult" and "summoning spirits."

From Yearning for the Wind: Celtic Reflections on Nature and the Soul by Tom Cowan, in the introduction: "The possibilities of reestablishing communication with nature and our souls and reconnecting with the cycles, rhythm, and flow of the river of life reminds us that the light we seek is not far away." (p. 10)

"These short, braided chapters are little windows into the mysteries of nature and soul, small meditations on how Spirit is present in our everyday lives. They are small invitations to encourage you to realize your own soul's intimacy with the world around you. They are meant to make you wonder." (p. 14)

From A Guide to the Sacraments by noted Anglican theologian John Macquarrie: "...Among early Christian writers, the Latin word sacramentum became the standard translation for the Greek word musterion, 'mystery'. Let us return to the definition in the Anglican catechism, for by linking outward and inward, physical and spiritual, it points toward an understanding of sacraments that may link together the various dualities that enter into our experience... a sacrament is 'an outward and visible sign of an inward and invisible grace'. On this view, a sacrament links the two worlds in which we have to live..." (pp. 4-5)

"The idea of a sacramental universe was beautifully expressed in some well-known lines of Elizabeth Barrett Browning: Earth's crammed with heaven, And every common bush afire with god; but only he who sees takes off his shoes, the rest sit round and pluck blackberries." (p. 8) This book is also taught in accredited seminaries of Protestant affiliation.

From Landscape of Prayer by Murray Bodo (a Franciscan priest and member of the Franciscan Academy): "Prayer is opening the door every morning and every evening even when there is no one on the doorstep. Prayer is the hope that one day, if I continue to open the door, God, or God's messenger, will be there to greet me." (from the cover)

"Jesus, the Son of God, descends from the Father, makes the crossing to dwell among us, away from his homeland. And when he prays, he goes apart in order to commune with the Father, to remember where he came from and where he will ascend again. We, too, have come from God and need to go aside to remember where we've come from and where we are returning. It takes a real effort to break out of the circle of self, to cross over the dirt road, and ascend or descend to some place of remembering who we really are." (p.3)

"Though prayer may begin with a heightened awareness of the self, its ultimate gesture is a breaking out of self-absorption and moving to the Other. Paradoxically, this crossing over to the Other, this breaking through and out of the narcissistic self, is marked by an awareness that the Other has broken through to me. Prayer is not so much what I do, therefore, as it is taking the time to go apart from self-absorption long enough to experience what God is doing in me. thus it is in prayer: we make those gestures that enable us to see what was there all along, the image of God, who is Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier, imprinted on our very soul. That image contemplated will enable us to know who we really are. This trinitarian image in me, the more intensely and intimately I contemplate it, moves me to move out of my own self-absorbed love to creative gestures of love outside myself." (p. 4)

"A 'V' of geese flies by my window. I see them but can't fly with them, can't become them. They are wings I long for but I must sit instead in the mystery of my own and their otherness. The geese, my mother and I, like the threads of this rug at my feet are a part of the pattern seen only by another, the Other, the God, who is both outside and within the pattern we all make together and individually. The daily prayer I enter here in this chair, this rug at my feet, is simply sitting in the mystery of the interwoven meaning we make together. At times if I take the time to sit here, I almost see into the mystery. Almost. I can almost touch it, but not quite.

I come to this place because I need the almost-touch of mystery. We all do. For that which is tangible … does not satisfy and only reminds us of its mortality, its diminishing and passing away. Mystery invites us into eternity, that meeting what we now experience as almost-touches -- a meeting that is effected by a passage through death. Sitting in the mystery reminds us that death is a passage which removes the 'almost' from that daily reaching out to touch what reaches out to touch us beyond our knowing and seeing." (pp. 6-7)

Tom Cowan says, "We create the Great Split between ourselves and nature, thinking we are different, or removed, or even alien to the natural world." (p. 16) And, "...this Great Mystery: assured that the hills, revers, trees, and clouds are the faculties of my soul extended beyond my head, my body, my feet, even beyond the footprints I leave in the dust of the trail behind me. Hildegard of Bingen would have said that my soul could hike on forever. She put it this way: 'Just as the heart is hidden in the human body, so is the body surrounded by the powers of the soul because these reach to the ends of the earth.'"

He goes on to quote a teaching purportedly by the Apostle Philip: "Every material and every element and every nature which is seen in the world are all combined … in the body of every human person." (pp. 19-20)

He also says, "The Creator longs for creation and is fond of creation, even as creation longs for the Creator and is fond of the Creator. Created things long each other and are fond of each other in some mysterious way." (p. 35)

Interesting that Psalm 42 says: "As the deer longs for running streams, so my soul longs for God." No, there's nothing here that "goes against" the Word of God. In fact, they do meet the criteria of the definition. This is what Christian mysticism is all about. Nothing occult, nothing dangerous to the soul, nothing at odds with the bible. In fact, shamanism is not occult. An Osage legend says that the Creator told the Osage people: "I have not made these rivers and streams for nothing. I have made them so you will have a means to reach old age." The Psalms tell us that God will make rivers run across parched ground, and will bubble up springs in the desert. Jesus was baptized in the Jordan river, and walked across the water to show his disciples who he was. This is all deeply spiritual stuff with God at the center.
 
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Cooky

Veteran Member
Let's begin with a legitimate and honest definition for Christian mysticism. From the Westminster Dictionary of Theological terms (1996, Westminster John Knox Press; Donald K. McKim): The experience of union with God by the bond of love that is beyond human power to attain and that brings a sense of direct knowledge of and fellowship with God centered in Jesus Christ.

The dictionary of Theological Terms is used as a reference book in theology classes taught at accreditied, graduate seminaries. Donald McKim is author of several books, including: Theological Turning Points: Major Issues in Christian Thought, Presbyterian Beliefs: A Brief Introduction, and The Westminster handbook to Reformed Theology. In other words, McKim is a Protestant, Reformed theologian and scholar.

So, let's take a look at some examples of Christian mysticism and see if they meet the criteria of the definition, or if they are, indeed, "of the occult" and "summoning spirits."

From Yearning for the Wind: Celtic Reflections on Nature and the Soul by Tom Cowan, in the introduction: "The possibilities of reestablishing communication with nature and our souls and reconnecting with the cycles, rhythm, and flow of the river of life reminds us that the light we seek is not far away." (p. 10)

"These short, braided chapters are little windows into the mysteries of nature and soul, small meditations on how Spirit is present in our everyday lives. They are small invitations to encourage you to realize your own soul's intimacy with the world around you. They are meant to make you wonder." (p. 14)

From A Guide to the Sacraments by noted Anglican theologian John Macquarrie: "...Among early Christian writers, the Latin word sacramentum became the standard translation for the Greek word musterion, 'mystery'. Let us return to the definition in the Anglican catechism, for by linking outward and inward, physical and spiritual, it points toward an understanding of sacraments that may link together the various dualities that enter into our experience... a sacrament is 'an outward and visible sign of an inward and invisible grace'. On this view, a sacrament links the two worlds in which we have to live..." (pp. 4-5)

"The idea of a sacramental universe was beautifully expressed in some well-known lines of Elizabeth Barrett Browning: Earth's crammed with heaven, And every common bush afire with god; but only he who sees takes off his shoes, the rest sit round and pluck blackberries." (p. 8) This book is also taught in accredited seminaries of Protestant affiliation.

From Landscape of Prayer by Murray Bodo (a Franciscan priest and member of the Franciscan Academy): "Prayer is opening the door every morning and every evening even when there is no one on the doorstep. Prayer is the hope that one day, if I continue to open the door, God, or God's messenger, will be there to greet me." (from the cover)

"Jesus, the Son of God, descends from the Father, makes the crossing to dwell among us, away from his homeland. And when he prays, he goes apart in order to commune with the Father, to remember where he came from and where he will ascend again. We, too, have come from God and need to go aside to remember where we've come from and where we are returning. It takes a real effort to break out of the circle of self, to cross over the dirt road, and ascend or descend to some place of remembering who we really are." (p.3)

"Though prayer may begin with a heightened awareness of the self, its ultimate gesture is a breaking out of self-absorption and moving to the Other. Paradoxically, this crossing over to the Other, this breaking through and out of the narcissistic self, is marked by an awareness that the Other has broken through to me. Prayer is not so much what I do, therefore, as it is taking the time to go apart from self-absorption long enough to experience what God is doing in me. thus it is in prayer: we make those gestures that enable us to see what was there all along, the image of God, who is Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier, imprinted on our very soul. That image contemplated will enable us to know who we really are. This trinitarian image in me, the more intensely and intimately I contemplate it, moves me to move out of my own self-absorbed love to creative gestures of love outside myself." (p. 4)

"A 'V' of geese flies by my window. I see them but can't fly with them, can't become them. They are wings I long for but I must sit instead in the mystery of my own and their otherness. The geese, my mother and I, like the threads of this rug at my feet are a part of the pattern seen only by another, the Other, the God, who is both outside and within the pattern we all make together and individually. The daily prayer I enter here in this chair, this rug at my feet, is simply sitting in the mystery of the interwoven meaning we make together. At times if I take the time to sit here, I almost see into the mystery. Almost. I can almost touch it, but not quite.

I come to this place because I need the almost-touch of mystery. We all do. For that which is tangible … does not satisfy and only reminds us of its mortality, its diminishing and passing away. Mystery invites us into eternity, that meeting what we now experience as almost-touches -- a meeting that is effected by a passage through death. Sitting in the mystery reminds us that death is a passage which removes the 'almost' from that daily reaching out to touch what reaches out to touch us beyond our knowing and seeing." (pp. 6-7)

Tom Cowan says, "We create the Great Split between ourselves and nature, thinking we are different, or removed, or even alien to the natural world." (p. 16) And, "...this Great Mystery: assured that the hills, revers, trees, and clouds are the faculties of my soul extended beyond my head, my body, my feet, even beyond the footprints I leave in the dust of the trail behind me. Hildegard of Bingen would have said that my soul could hike on forever. She put it this way: 'Just as the heart is hidden in the human body, so is the body surrounded by the powers of the soul because these reach to the ends of the earth.'"

He goes on to quote a teaching purportedly by the Apostle Philip: "Every material and every element and every nature which is seen in the world are all combined … in the body of every human person." (pp. 19-20)

He also says, "The Creator longs for creation and is fond of creation, even as creation longs for the Creator and is fond of the Creator. Created things long each other and are fond of each other in some mysterious way." (p. 35)

Interesting that Psalm 42 says: "As the deer longs for running streams, so my soul longs for God." No, there's nothing here that "goes against" the Word of God. In fact, they do meet the criteria of the definition. This is what Christian mysticism is all about. Nothing occult, nothing dangerous to the soul, nothing at odds with the bible. In fact, shamanism is not occult. An Osage legend says that the Creator told the Osage people: "I have not made these rivers and streams for nothing. I have made them so you will have a means to reach old age." The Psalms tell us that God will make rivers run across parched ground, and will bubble up springs in the desert. Jesus was baptized in the Jordan river, and walked across the water to show his disciples who he was. This is all deeply spiritual stuff with God at the center.

Well said. Thanks for the honesty and balance presented here.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Everything...Is imaginary...in "thought space"...

Okay, and your point? Because Catholic Mysticism doesn't deal in "thought space". It deals in the biblical scriptures specifically.

My point is people are the ones who actually do "evil". It has nothing to do with scripture or the words in the Bible. Each of us is solely responsible for our actions good and bad. Jesus is NOT responsible for the good we do. And Satan is NOT responsible for the evil we do.

The source of evil comes from our human imperfections. Our human imperfections cause us to have needs and desires. It is our needs and desires which are the source of all that is evil in the World. God is perfect, whole, and complete. Since God is perfect, whole, and complete God has no needs or desires. Since God does not have any needs or desires God is absolute goodness in the highest possible degree.

btw, Catholic Mysticism only exists in thought space. Words and ideas only exist in our minds. They do not exist in reality. Where as acts of evil do exist and occur in reality. The original question "Is Christian Mysticism Evil?" is an ill-conceived question to ask in my opinion and way of thinking. The question to ask is do people who study and believe in Christian Mysticism commit more acts of evil in reality? I'm not sure just having evil thoughts counts. Now saying something that emotional hurts someone else could be considered evil from the other person's point of view.

This is one of the fundamental problems of evil. It is based on subjective opinion on what to be consider evil or good. This is why I've come to the conclusion how we practice our religion or just saying magic words does not absolve us of our sins. The only way to attain absolution for our sins is by getting forgiveness from the people we have actually sinned against (or least in their minds based on their subjective judgments and opinions). My way of thinking about sin is much more anthropocentric and much more difficult to live a morally good life. With my way of thinking the golden rule is elevated in order to keep the scales of ones own morality balanced with actions and deeds. It is important to keep the weight of our evil the same as the weight of a feather. When you create suffering in others you will inevitably live a life of suffering. Our brains have a nasty way of punishing our hubris with self-inflicting wounds.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Catholic Mysticism only exists in thought space. Words and ideas only exist in our minds. They do not exist in reality. Where as acts of evil do exist and occur in reality. The original question "Is Christian Mysticism Evil?" is an ill-conceived question to ask in my opinion and way of thinking. The question to ask is do people who study and believe in Christian Mysticism commit more acts of evil in reality? I'm not sure just having evil thoughts counts. Now saying something that emotional hurts someone else could be considered evil from the other person's point of view.

This is one of the fundamental problems of evil. It is based on subjective opinion on what to be consider evil or good. This is why I've come to the conclusion how we practice our religion or just saying magic words does not absolve us of our sins. The only way to attain absolution for our sins is by getting forgiveness from the people we have actually sinned against (or least in their minds based on their subjective judgments and opinions). My way of thinking about sin is much more anthropocentric and much more difficult to live a morally good life. With my way of thinking the golden rule is elevated in order to keep the scales of ones own morality balanced with actions and deeds. It is important to keep the weight of our evil the same as the weight of a feather. When you create suffering in others you will inevitably live a life of suffering. Our brains have a nasty way of punishing our hubris with self-inflicting wounds.

But St. Augustine teaches that we know the essences of things in rationibus ceternis, but this knowledge has its starting point in the data of sense (cf. Qustiones, LXXXIII, c. xlvi).

IOW, if our senses are bonded to God, first of all, then our rationale will proceed to connect to Him as well... And if both our senses and rationale are connected to God, then, and only then, will our actions also be connected with God as well.

...This is an introduction to the most extensive form of Christianity possible... Only few have ever *truly* achieved it to it's fullest potential.

See pg. 271 (rationibus ceternis)
Handbook of the History of Philosophy
 
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