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Featured Is Christ Myth Theory Credible?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by steveb1, Aug 17, 2019.

  1. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    I don't really care if he existed as a person or as a myth. The questions to be answered are about whether he was a god, or a son of a god, or did miracles. Outside of the Bible stories, nothing indicates this is the case.
     
  2. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Nope, that really is your problem. Talk to some Jews some day.

    Let's go over the Virgin Prophesy myth first. Read the verses in context. They are clearly not about Jesus. Second they do not say virgin. Third they did not call Jesus Emmanuel. Three strikes and you are out.
     
  3. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Answer the previous question you just avoided?

    Which Hebrew word for virgin do you claim is the correct one?
     
  4. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    Bethulah. Rabbi Eliezer (mid-first to early second century CE) defines her as 'Any woman who has never yet observed a blood flow, even if she is married.' (Mishna, Niddah 1:4)
     
  5. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    What you described would relate to hadith, but not the Quran. It would be a very fringe theory that the Quran was compiled in the 9th C

    Muhammad was a political leader who lived 600 years later and had a significant effect on his environment and still needs to rely on near-contemporary verification of a very incidental nature.

    Jesus was an impoverished preacher with a small band of followers who didn't do a great deal. Thinking that he 'should' have been noted earlier is unrealistic.

    That his followers appeared very soon after him and are noted by numerous independent sources is very strong evidence he existed.

    That no one around these times questioned his existence, despite the fact that Romans would likely have had records of executions that could be checked is further evidence.

    From the nativity, to being from Nazareth, to his baptism by John, to having a living brother James, to being wrong about the eschaton to being crucified his biography makes far more sense as an exaggerated hagiography of a real person containing slivers of truth rather than as a blank-slate mythical archetype.

    Other than 'no contemporary sources' there is no reason to think he is pure myth, and for 'Jesus the man' the overwhelming expectation is that there would indeed be no contemporary sources.

    The evidence is perfectly consistent with him being a man, and not at all consistent with him being a myth.

    Neither Zeus or Dionysius had followers being noted within a few years of their lives including a living brother and neither remotely resembled a normal person with a few Divine attributes tacked on at a later date.

    And he wasn't writing a biography, but engaging in theological musing.

    This still doesn't answer the question of why anyone would invent such an implausible messiah if they had a completely blank slate.

    I'd (highly speculative) guess that his elevation in status occurred as his followers had to rationalise the fact he died before the eschaton, which turned into his 'sacrifice' preventing the eschaton, to him being raised by god, which became him being Divine via adoption which became him being divine by birth.

    I believe there are things in his bio that would not be there had they been dreaming up a mythical figure from scratch.

    I believe they were basing the Gospels on an oral history with kernels of truth supplemented by a lot of hagiographical exaggeration and theological musing and interpolation.
     
  6. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    I don't think so. You cannot necessarily use the Hebrew word "betulah" - which can be an older woman, and since a betulah in Joel 1:8 is a married woman. The only word in Hebrew (besides possibly naarah) that can really signify a young maiden virgin is almah. Also, nowhere in Scripture is an almah seen as one who has lost her virginity."

    Not only that, but if you think betulah is unambiguous for virgin, then you have to explain how and why the King's concubines were referred to as betulah's even AFTER they had shacked up with the king in Esther chapter 2? Almah clearly doesn't have the baggage that your betulah's have in Scripture.

    What's more, when betulah is used in reference to Rebekah as a virgin (in Genesis chapter 24) it came with the qualifier "nor had any man known her." The qualifier wasn't necessary when almah was used in reference to her as a virgin.

    Finally, when the Jewish sages translated the Tanakh into the Greek (Greek Septuagint) they used the Greek word for virgin - parthenos - in Isaiah 7:14. That's the word from which we get the Parthenon - the Temple of the Virgin Athena!
     
    #186 Spartan, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  7. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    Virgins didn't give birth in Biblical times IVF hadn't been invented. Mary would have got pregnant by having sexual intercourse with a guy.
     
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Sorry, I missed your questions from all of the errors that you made and did not acknowledge.

    Bethulah is a word that is unambiguous if one wants to refer to a virgin. An almah is not. It only means young woman and here is an article that disagrees with your claim about the word bethulah:


    https://outreachjudaism.org/alma-virgin/
     
  9. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    That completely ignores the supernatural God who has produced miracles from Genesis to Revelation. If you want a non-supernatural book find something other than the Bible.
     
  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Joel 1 9 does not refer to a woman at all. At least not according to the link. Perhaps you were thinking of another verse.
     
  11. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Betulah is definitely ambiguous. I demonstrated that in the following post: Is Christ Myth Theory Credible?

    And betulah can mean a very old woman so it's not a word you want to use if you want to talk about a young, virgin maiden.
     
  12. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    No reliable miracles in the Bible, only mythology. And you shoot yourself in the foot by referring to Genesis, it was proven to be a book of myths a long time ago.
     
  13. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Typo. The verse is Joel 1:8
     
  14. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    an old woman can be a virgin, that does not make it not credible. A young woman can have sex.
     
  15. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Tell it to somebody who believes you. I don't.
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    That appears to be a single woman lamenting that she never got married. That does not help your case.
     
  17. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    But that is your problem. All you have is here belief. People that are not weak in faith know.
     
  18. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    There is no evidence that god exists. Much of the Biblical lacks any credibility, and is much more likely to be a human production with no input from any god.
     
  19. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Nuts.
     
  20. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Or else Jesus was a story told by a small band of followers. We simply don't know what the proto-Christians that Paul said he persecuted thought, There may be glimpses, as in Paul's 'kenosis hymn' (in which Jesus isn't called Jesus till after his death, and 'even on the cross' is added as someone else's gloss on the text) but we have no anchor-point to assess their historical value, if any.
    What independent sources when, and where did they get their information?
    That may simply reflect the smallness of the sect. And if those records ever turn up, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
    That's your view. My own remains that there's no clincher either way. And also that there are many more questions about Jesus' existence in history than you think there are. None of that makes me right or you right, but so it goes.
    That no one who wrote about him knew who his was, that Mark is constructed from a sort of midrash view of bits of the Tanakh and is more than 40 years after his purported crucifixion, that maybe there was a Q and if there was, who wrote it and when, that no real Jesus is needed to account for Mark or for Paul, are some of the reasons to doubt.
    And vice versa.
    The two principle problems for the no-HJ argument are James the brother of the Lord and the eternal argument from authority, which even Ehrman stoops to. The James argument has a number of problems, which prevent it being a clincher.

    And so on.

    Wouldn't it be fun if next week we learn his tomb's been found with his autobiography buried with him!
     
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