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Is Buddhism a Religion?

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Hmmm! Well I did ask for more data didn't I! And of course you are right that there are Buddhist religions...I have little knowledge of Japanese Buddhism - despite having had a Japanese Buddhist as a house guest for over a year and a half. My suspicion is (doing a bit of word association based on @MikeDwight 's post) that there's a bit of syncretism going on there...I'm pretty sure that as far as can be discerned (which is admittedly not terribly far) you couldn't have got to "Pure Land" Buddhism off the teachings of Gautama Buddha - which seem - for the most part (and as far as can be discerned...) not to be theistic at all and to a fair extent to be generally against religion - or at least against religious devotion to deities. Wouldn't you say?

Pure Land Buddhism isn't just a Japanese religion. It is a broad branch of Mahayana Buddhism and one of the most widely practiced traditions of Buddhism in East Asia.

It is based on three primary texts or Suttas (attributable to Buddha).

The Pure Land teachings were first developed in India, perhaps over two thousand years ago.

Pure Land Buddhism - Wikipedia

Buddhism is syncretic in the sense that it builds on the traditions that have gone before (Hinduism) as every other religion has. Otherwise if you are thinking its syncretic because of the fusion with Shinto, that's possible and even likely in Japan. However it would be relatively easy to compare and contrast it with pure land sects in other countries.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Pure Land Buddhism isn't just a Japanese religion.
But Japanese Pure Land Buddhism is a pretty uniquely Japanese religion...but anyway, I take your point.

It is based on three primary texts or Suttas (attributable to Buddha).
I think you mean "attributed" - don't you? Its a bit (nay a lot) of a stretch to claim that they are genuinely "attributable" to Gautama Buddha - I'm pretty sure you don't actually believe that.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
But Japanese Pure Land Buddhism is a pretty uniquely Japanese religion...but anyway, I take your point.

I think you mean "attributed" - don't you? Its a bit (nay a lot) of a stretch to claim that they are genuinely "attributable" to Gautama Buddha - I'm pretty sure you don't actually believe that.

As far as I can see its impossible to attribute any of the Buddhist canon to Buddha with certainty. The first of Guatama Buddha's Teachings were not written down until over 400 years after His death.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Are any of the various Buddhisms -- or "branches of Buddhism" -- a religion?

Sure. But, alas, not always.

If not, then why not?

Some people who seem to be reasonably sincere have co-opted the name "Buddhism" for what looks to me much more like invocations for supernatural favor than anything resembling religion.


If your reasoning is that this or that branch of Buddhism fails to worship gods, then why is it necessary to worship gods before something is a religion?

Not my reasoning, and it isn't.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Pure Land Buddhism is an example of Buddhism that most here would consider theistic, even a few of the sceptics.

Pure Land Buddhism and Amitābha Buddha

NB I started another thread exploring to what extent Buddha was a theist.

To what extent was Gautama Buddha a theist or an atheist?
Pure Land is perhaps a bit less incompatible with theism for the sake of theism, I suppose.

But it is really misleading to call any school of Buddhism theistic, IMO. Ignostic is more like it.

Come to think of it, @adrian009 , do you have any clear opinions on whether Shinto is theistic? I would be interested in your take on that.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
How, if at all, do you tell the two groups apart?
Well that's easy - if a Buddhist says Buddhism is a religion that person's Buddhism is a religion, if a Buddhist says Buddhism is not a religion then that person's Buddhism is not a religion.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
As far as I can see its impossible to attribute any of the Buddhist canon to Buddha with certainty. The first of Guatama Buddha's Teachings were not written down until over 400 years after His death.
I am not aware of the exact timeline of the Tipitaka, but taken for granted that what you say is accurate, I must assume that those 400 years were spent by the community to depure and maintain the oral tradition before commiting it to writing.

Which, if you ask me, may easily be better than rushing to write it while he was still alive.

That said, I still stand surprised by your claim.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Well that's easy - if a Buddhist says Buddhism is a religion that person's Buddhism is a religion, if a Buddhist says Buddhism is not a religion then that person's Buddhism is not a religion.
How Zen! :)
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
The difference is a individual religion in a endless sea of individual religions vs
religion the all consuming fire.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
As far as I can see its impossible to attribute any of the Buddhist canon to Buddha with certainty.
Well I know that's the official Baha'i line - so that any inconvenient sayings of Buddha can be dismissed on the grounds of inaccurate transmission - we wouldn't want Buddha disagreeing with Baha'u'llah of course. But then on what basis are you claiming that a tradition established in medieval Japan based on a syncretistically adulterated (the originators of Shinto religions not being considered "Manifestations" as far as I am aware) interpretation of the implausible claims of texts that had by then been garbled by at least a millennium and a half of unfaithful transmission and translation of words that are apparently falsely or at least unreliably attributed to Gautama Buddha and superseded by at least two or three intervening "Manifestations" (depending on where in "history" one places Zoroaster) could possibly provide a basis for insisting that Buddhism is a theistic religion?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Since I view religion as more of a practical term than a philosophical term, yes, I say it's a religion. There are many practical reasons to be called a religion, in this day. A simple example of an advantage, is that cities have a land zoning category called 'religious'. If Buddhism, or any other grouping on world view wasn't a religion, it wouldn't have any rights to build any house of worship or center there. They would face discrimination.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Pure Land is perhaps a bit less incompatible with theism for the sake of theism, I suppose.

But it is really misleading to call any school of Buddhism theistic, IMO. Ignostic is more like it.

Come to think of it, @adrian009 , do you have any clear opinions on whether Shinto is theistic? I would be interested in your take on that.

In pure land it is Amitābha Buddha Himself who is deified. Amitābha is also called "The Buddha of Immeasurable Light and Life".

I wouldn't describe Buddhism as either agnostic or ignostic. I wonder if apophatic is more apt.

Apophatic theology - Wikipedia

Buddha openly avoided the question of God or gods. The most likely reason was due to the state of the Hindu religion at the time and the fruitless discussions of a theistic nature. I suspect it was reminiscent of the types of discussions that can occur within Christianity about the trinity. He left his followers free to decide for themselves. I suspect that's why Buddhism lends itself so well to syncretism as evidenced by its close association with Shintoism for mealy a thousand years.

The supreme goddess in Shinto is Ameterasu. It was widely believed the Japanese imperial family were descended from this sun god. In that sense the Japanese Emperor was often deified.

Amaterasu - Wikipedia

Japan's defeat to the Americas was the only time they were defeated in war. The emperor Hirohito was required to relinquish his divinity.

Hirohito - Wikipedia
 

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
Why did Japan force every place they went into humiliation?! They made every place bow to every soldier who represents a God, Hirohito, they made everyone other religions too, worship at Shinto Shrines, or pay respects to a religion. Its completely against the way most of these easterners want to spin religion there as so peaceful or at least considerate, or intellectual.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Well I know that's the official Baha'i line - so that any inconvenient sayings of Buddha can be dismissed on the grounds of inaccurate transmission - we wouldn't want Buddha disagreeing with Baha'u'llah of course. But then on what basis are you claiming that a tradition established in medieval Japan based on a syncretistically adulterated (the originators of Shinto religions not being considered "Manifestations" as far as I am aware) interpretation of the implausible claims of texts that had by then been garbled by at least a millennium and a half of unfaithful transmission and translation of words that are apparently falsely or at least unreliably attributed to Gautama Buddha and superseded by at least two or three intervening "Manifestations" (depending on where in "history" one places Zoroaster) could possibly provide a basis for insisting that Buddhism is a theistic religion?

I'm not insisting on anything other than Buddhism as practiced in some places in the world is theistic. I wouldn't infer Guatama Buddha taught theism on that basis alone. However we shouldn't assume Buddha was an atheist either based on how Buddhism has evolved in the West.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
In pure land it is Amitābha Buddha Himself who is deified. Amitābha is also called "The Buddha of Immeasurable Light and Life".

Deity is such a freeform idea... I don't think that saying that anything is deified tells us anything beyond that there is someone (at least one person) willing to call that a deity.

Amitabha is certainly treated as a deity by some. But that does not make it a deity in the Abrahamic sense, and instead indicates how inspiration, as opposed to that fabled claim of uncaused causation, is the proper role for practice "deities".

I wouldn't describe Buddhism as either agnostic or ignostic. I wonder if apophatic is more apt.

Apophatic theology - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophatic_theology#Indian_parallels

Gosh, I sure hope not. We need more ignosticism and more apatheism in our religions.

Far as I can tell, Buddhism is a literal stranger to theology. It just isn't something that exists in the doctrine, not even as a bad idea to be repealed.

Buddha openly avoided the question of God or gods. The most likely reason was due to the state of the Hindu religion at the time and the fruitless discussions of a theistic nature.

I don't think so. The most likely reason was that Gautama probably had a healthy tendency towards apatheism himself. He was, after all, a pratical and wise man.

I suspect it was reminiscent of the types of discussions that can occur within Christianity about the trinity. He left his followers free to decide for themselves.

If they saw fit to even lend the matter any significance at all, which they had little incentive and less reason to do.

I suspect that's why Buddhism lends itself so well to syncretism as evidenced by its close association with Shintoism for mealy a thousand years.

Buddhism is not so much given to syncretism (which is probably not even the proper word to use here) as it is suitable to rediscovery and redefinition according to specific cultural circunstances - precisely because its subject matter is not theological in nature, but rather focused on the nature of reality in general and of the human mind specifically.

Shintoism, it should be noted, has certain unique qualities that make its coexistence with Buddhism remarkable. To a considerable extent they are not even interested in much of the same subject matter of each other. They do not so much syncretize with each other as they occur together without too much conflict or even interest in mutual dialogue.

The supreme goddess in Shinto is Amaterasu. It was widely believed the Japanese imperial family were descended from this sun god. In that sense the Japanese Emperor was often deified.

Amaterasu - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaterasu

Are we talking about actual beliefs here, however? Or is it more accurate to call it tradition instead?

The tradition is certainly that the imperial family descends from Amaterasu. I would think that most Japanese do not literally believe that she was a deity in the supernatural sense and that the Emperor happens to be biologically descended from her. That would be neither necessary nor particularly believable, after all.

If I had to guess, I would assume that very little effort is even put into gauging how the Japanese people feel on this specific matter. Such an effort would be perceived as rude and pointless. I for one would agree with that perception.

Japan's defeat to the Americas was the only time they were defeated in war. The emperor Hirohito was required to relinquish his divinity.

Hirohito - Wikipedia

And we all know how relative both of those facts end up being.
 
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